Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Sun May 13, 2012 10:53 pm  

Catalancs wrote:

Amazing how many folk are suddenly lifelong Manchester City fans.

Success brings 'fans'. United fans should know that more than anybody...

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Sun May 13, 2012 11:09 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Apart from getting rid of Jose, which was the dumbest decision in the history of football, what are his other dumb decisions? If he hadn't acted quickly to get rid of the mistake of appointing AVB then Chelsea wouldn't be in the CL final and holders of the FA Cup.

How do you know the Sheikh is smart? How do you know he is committed to continually spending cash to keep Citeh at the top when he can't even be ar5ed to go and see them play?

I'll bite. How about giving Avram Grant a four-year deal? Wasn't Scolari on a four-year deal? Ancelotti? How about signing Zhirkov when he hadn't even appointed his next manager?

Do you think Roman can look at Chelsea and say his business decisions have been good? You only have to look at the number of managers that have been there to see that the man is an utter nut. To make things worse, he continually lets these managers spend vast sums on players, when he clearly has no clue whether he can trust them or not. Not only that, but he even went through a phase where he wanted his club to play 'sexy football'. I mean, seriously, if he does want that, keep it behind closed doors. The last thing any manager needs is more pressure due to the playing style.

For me, it's lovely what Roman has done at Chelsea, who knows where they'd be without him, but to suggest he hasn't made some crazy decisions, when he persistently appoints the wrong coach, is quite stupendous really.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Sun May 13, 2012 11:26 pm  

Catalancs wrote:

Amazing how many folk are suddenly lifelong Manchester City fans. Half expecting to see my nan wearing a light blue scarf tomorrow.
Wonder if the City fans who left at 2-1 have realised yet. Wasn't nice to see QPR launch the ball towards the corner flag without a man in the City half at 3-2.
Credit where it's due, City have been the best team over the course of the season. How we managed to push City so close is still baffling me and to think, had we turned up against Wigan Athletic and not switched off against Everton, but all eyes on next season now.

The game was over within seconds of Aguero scoring in the 94th minute. Did you expect us to have a shot straight from the kick off which was in the 95th minute ? We defended very well against City yesterday it just didn't happen for us.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 12:03 am  

Roddy B wrote:

I'll bite. How about giving Avram Grant a four-year deal? Wasn't Scolari on a four-year deal? Ancelotti? How about signing Zhirkov when he hadn't even appointed his next manager?

Making Grant a permanent manager was baffling, but the only one to lose out over that was Roman. In some ways it probably did bring some success as Grant could manage with a degree of authority, but it ended up costing Roman financially more when he turfed him out.

Scolari. If you have enough faith in him to be able to do that job you are going to give a 4 year deal.

Ancellotti. He had a decent CL record, and that was obviously what Roman craved the most. In some ways Roman did screw up because Ancellotti seems to have been given mixed messages, but on the other hand our worst CL performances were under CA, and to see him being dismissed with such ease by Jose and Fergie showed him he probably wasn't the man.

Zhirkov - Well you were one who thought he was going to be great, so it wasn't that bad a signing. As for him being signed without a manager, that is part and parcel of how some clubs operate now. It's impossible to know, but I suspect Robben was a similar signing, maybe Cech too.

Do you think Roman can look at Chelsea and say his business decisions have been good?

We're 90 minutes from winning the CL. We are FA cup winners. Neither would have been at all likely had Roman not admitted the hiring mistake and kicked AVB out. Same with Scolari. We won the FA Cup final and should have been in the CL final. He can clearly make a tough decision and admit errors.

Hiring managers is hard. Especially at the level we want to be at. But we are set up to consistently win things, and IMO that is a lot better place to be than being where Arsenal are and being 7 years without winning a thing.

You only have to look at the number of managers that have been there to see that the man is an utter nut.

There's only one managerial decision that Roman made that was nuts, make that two, appointing Grant as permanent boss was crazy too. Apart from that there have been good reasons to do what he's done.

To make things worse, he continually lets these managers spend vast sums on players, when he clearly has no clue whether he can trust them or not. Not only that, but he even went through a phase where he wanted his club to play 'sexy football'. I mean, seriously, if he does want that, keep it behind closed doors. The last thing any manager needs is more pressure due to the playing style.

Again, the nutty thing was not backing the best manager in the world. Other than that, he's been right to back managers who have been in place. If the manager is given top quality players and then can't make them play then it's clearly the manager's fault. If the reverse was true, if he was refusing to buy players and tying the hands of the manager's then you'd be slagging him for that.

For me, it's lovely what Roman has done at Chelsea, who knows where they'd be without him, but to suggest he hasn't made some crazy decisions, when he persistently appoints the wrong coach, is quite stupendous really.

He's appointed a World Cup winning manager. He's appointed a 2 x CL winning manager who had also won the Italian League. He appointed the brightest young manager in the game, a guy who had just won a treble.

Looking back you call them crazy decisions, but while they were somewhat questionable, there were justifications for them as well. In a way they are pretty much comparable to a formerly winning club looking back decades and appointing someone who hadn't managed in 10 years, mainly because the bloke is a club legend. And the consequences of you having Dalglish are likely to be far more damaging than us getting rid of AVB.

But on the other side of things, we are one of the strongest clubs in Europe and have gone through a period of success that we could never have dreamt about. He has more than earned the right to make questionable decisions after what he's delivered.

Put it this way, I think if you offered Citeh the success over the next 8 years that we've had, I think they'd snap your hands off to take it. If Citeh end up surpassing what we've done then the owners will deserve credit for managing better than Roman has. But you don't give them that credit after 1 FA Cup and a title won on goal difference. Citeh were minutes from being an even bigger joke than the geordies today. Sure, they took it in the end and who cares now they have the trophy, but there's no way it should have been that close.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 5:01 am  

So, it turns out that yesterday wasn't just a dream. Unreal.

I certainly don't buy the "shift of power" or dynasty argument. United did incredibly well to pick up 89 points in what was a year of transition for them. They only really need a couple of players and they'll be as big a threat as ever.

I don't see City being big net spenders in the summer but there could be qute a turnover of players. Our biggest challenge is to bring stability to the strikers positions. There are question marks over the future of Tevez, Balotelli & Dzeko, even Aguero if RM really want him. The club simply cannot allow that uncertainty to continue through to August.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 7:07 am  

Cibaman wrote:

So, it turns out that yesterday wasn't just a dream. Unreal.

I certainly don't buy the "shift of power" or dynasty argument. United did incredibly well to pick up 89 points in what was a year of transition for them. They only really need a couple of players and they'll be as big a threat as ever.

I don't see City being big net spenders in the summer but there could be qute a turnover of players. Our biggest challenge is to bring stability to the strikers positions. There are question marks over the future of Tevez, Balotelli & Dzeko, even Aguero if RM really want him. The club simply cannot allow that uncertainty to continue through to August.

I've got a feeling there will be plenty of in's and outs at Eastlands in the Summer. With the new financial fair play rules around the corner, alot of members of the gigantic squad will simply have to be sold.

Also it wouldn't surprise me if the Sheikh begins to make more prominent signings now City have finally won the title. Interesting Summer ahead.

[John_D]

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 8:37 am  

Best game I saw this weekend: the German cup final. Dortmund 5-2 FC Bayern. Absolutely brilliant from first to last.
FA Trophy final a close second.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 10:53 am  

Saddened! wrote:

It'll be fascinating to see how City behave over transfers now. Does the title give them the confidence and see them go after the elite class of player? I don't think they've really ever signed a genuinely elite player as yet (Aguero, Hart, Kompany etc are in that class now but were not at big clubs when they signed them). Will they get a Ronaldo or a Messi type player?

I listened to City FM this afternoon and they were speculating that Skrtel was left out by Liverpool today as he's signing for City and also that City are going to top any United bid for Leighton Baines. If I were Mancini I'd be looking to get rid of Mario and Carlos and pick up a striker to replace those two (One is enough as it's not like either really contribute anything positive) a midfielder and a centre back as good as the starting players for backup. City would have won the league months ago if they had a centre back to cover Kompany's trip to Africa.

The only other "Elite" player outside of messi and Ronaldo is Neymar and he is nailed on to be joining real madrid.

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 10:59 am  

RVN hangs up his boots, he was a machine in his prime.


Expect United to lure him out of retirement in February

Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Mon May 14, 2012 11:13 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Making Grant a permanent manager was baffling, but the only one to lose out over that was Roman. In some ways it probably did bring some success as Grant could manage with a degree of authority, but it ended up costing Roman financially more when he turfed him out.

Scolari. If you have enough faith in him to be able to do that job you are going to give a 4 year deal.

Ancellotti. He had a decent CL record, and that was obviously what Roman craved the most. In some ways Roman did screw up because Ancellotti seems to have been given mixed messages, but on the other hand our worst CL performances were under CA, and to see him being dismissed with such ease by Jose and Fergie showed him he probably wasn't the man.

The point is; Roman never had a clue if any of these people were actually up to the job, he gave them big contracts then sacked them shortly afterwards for reasons only known to him. Why give Scolari a big long contract, only to sack him the moment things go wrong? It's like Roman just expects every manager to come in and win everything immediately. Clubs have ups and downs, clubs go through cycles and the playing staff will need regular overhauls. I'd say the only coach who was able to come in and sign the players for his formation was Mourinho, possibly Ancelotti a little, but even then, Mourinho had Shevchenko and Ballack thrust upon him and had to change from a successful 4-3-3, to a tame 4-4-2 in a diamond.

Zhirkov - Well you were one who thought he was going to be great, so it wasn't that bad a signing. As for him being signed without a manager, that is part and parcel of how some clubs operate now. It's impossible to know, but I suspect Robben was a similar signing, maybe Cech too.

Zhirkov was/is a class player, but why sign him to play left back when you have Ashley Cole? Why sign him to play left wing when you have Malouda? Why sign a strict wide player then bring in a coach who doesn't really like to utilise width?

We're 90 minutes from winning the CL. We are FA cup winners. Neither would have been at all likely had Roman not admitted the hiring mistake and kicked AVB out. Same with Scolari. We won the FA Cup final and should have been in the CL final. He can clearly make a tough decision and admit errors.

If he can admit his errors, how can you ask somebody to come out and explain his other dumb decisions. I understand that hindsight is a beautiful thing, but football is a business and you should really plan so that you can see the majority of things without hindsight. Why was Scolari ever appointed when his style of management never suited Chelsea? Do you think his management style was ever taken into consideration? I don't. I think they seen his CV, they seen his Brazil and Portugal sides (quite fluent in their style) and thought he'd chuck cash at a big name and hope for the best. Outdated training methods were never taken into it, nor were questionable motivational techniques ever considered.

With regards to AvB, he clearly wasn't the man to come in and do what Chelsea wanted, whilst the club probably could have operated a bit more sensibly if he was to be given every chance to succeed. They spent the majority of the summer begging for Modric, then opted for Mata quite late on in the window. Meireles came in on deadline day, whilst Lukaku and Romeu both came in in August. The last thing a new manager needs is players coming in whilst the season is underway, or at the very end of pre-season. I, along with many others, expected AvB to come in and begin a complete overhaul at the club, to oversee the departures of players like Lampard, Terry, Essien, Bosingwa, Cole, Anelka, Alex, Drogba and probably a few others. But he came in and the only senior player of note that left was Zhirkov. Was that AvB's decision or the club's? Either way, the club shouldn't have appointed him if they planned to keep the players because he was never the right manager to get the best from them.

Hiring managers is hard. Especially at the level we want to be at. But we are set up to consistently win things, and IMO that is a lot better place to be than being where Arsenal are and being 7 years without winning a thing.

I'm not disputing it's hard, I'm disputing that the owner continually makes regrettable decisions. It's brilliant that he accepts that, but he should have stopped making those decisions after the Mourinho howler, to continue making poor decisions when he's quite clearly clueless is just dumb.

Again, the nutty thing was not backing the best manager in the world. Other than that, he's been right to back managers who have been in place. If the manager is given top quality players and then can't make them play then it's clearly the manager's fault. If the reverse was true, if he was refusing to buy players and tying the hands of the manager's then you'd be slagging him for that.

The problem isn't just that he's funding them, it's that he can go from having enough faith to fund big signings, then sack them having lost faith not long after. Why did he spend £70m+ last January, only to sack Ancelotti? Why did he let Grant sign Anelka, only to sack him? Why was AvB allowed to bring in Mata, Meireles and co. only to be sacked? Do Chelsea have a DoF or what?

He's appointed a World Cup winning manager. He's appointed a 2 x CL winning manager who had also won the Italian League. He appointed the brightest young manager in the game, a guy who had just won a treble.

Looking back you call them crazy decisions, but while they were somewhat questionable, there were justifications for them as well. In a way they are pretty much comparable to a formerly winning club looking back decades and appointing someone who hadn't managed in 10 years, mainly because the bloke is a club legend. And the consequences of you having Dalglish are likely to be far more damaging than us getting rid of AVB.

As I said before. He may appoint men with great CVs, but if they don't suit Chelsea he may as well appoint a fan. Roman doesn't seem to know what he wants, he just seems to appoint whatever big name is available and hope for the best.

Kenny doesn't really fit in with the conversation. The consequences of us having Kenny Dalglish should be nullified by having a good plan in place with a DoF pushing that plan on. We don't have a DoF and our team is struggling, we aren't doing a lot right at the moment but I hope that soon changes. You could be right though, another season like this one and we could fall even further away from where we hope/expect to be.

But on the other side of things, we are one of the strongest clubs in Europe and have gone through a period of success that we could never have dreamt about. He has more than earned the right to make questionable decisions after what he's delivered.

Put it this way, I think if you offered Citeh the success over the next 8 years that we've had, I think they'd snap your hands off to take it. If Citeh end up surpassing what we've done then the owners will deserve credit for managing better than Roman has. But you don't give them that credit after 1 FA Cup and a title won on goal difference. Citeh were minutes from being an even bigger joke than the geordies today. Sure, they took it in the end and who cares now they have the trophy, but there's no way it should have been that close.

I haven't really given the Citeh owners any praise, to do what they've done doesn't requite that much skill or brains. The questions will be asked of them in the coming seasons, the Premier League is competitive, he'll have Arsenal, Chelsea and Man United to compete with next season, if Citeh aren't consistently winning things, how will they react? If they react similarly to Roman, then they should expect similar/poorer results to what Roman has had. If they do things right though and appoint the right men, they could easily surpass Chelsea's success and win in Europe.