Re: The Football Chat (cont) : Fri May 11, 2012 12:17 pm
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Roddy B wrote: From what I've read on South America and what we view as 'racist language', there seem to be a few problems with what you're saying. For one, it isn't seen as racist to them and it seems to be more of a case of 'comfortable language' rather than cultural racism. From what I've read, they don't discriminate, they aren't racist and black and white is equal. Negro seems to be merely a term they use almost in a sense that we'd call somebody ginge. Just because you find the word offensive in your language, doesn't mean you can offer an opinion of what is and isn't acceptable to them in their culture. To bring up the Suarez thing, Uruguay's black players (Alvaro Pereira being one) absolutely accept language like that because he's grown up with it in his culture. It doesn't seem to be something used over there as an offensive word, as I mentioned before, it's the addition of things like harsh adjectives and tone that make it racist, rather than the actual word itself. For me, it should be us that shouldn't be imposing our alleged political correctness on other nations and continents. The word negro clearly isn't the same word over there as it is over here, we can't go forcing our language, our interpretation and our no nonsense approach on countries that seem to be getting on just fine as they are with regards to racism. As was mentioned in the Drenthe article, Higuain and Heinze would use it comfortably but were told to stop as it upset/would upset some of their team mates. That's all it really takes, just tell them not to do it if people may find it offensive, but to try and take the high horse approach and condemn them for speaking in totally acceptable terms to them in their language, is just ignorance and inexcusable. For me, racism is more than just the use of a simple word. It's an approach, a way of thinking and I can't for the life of me believe that Messi - a player that's played with the likes of Yaya Toure, Eric Abidal, Samuel Eto'o, Ronaldinho and Lillian Thuram - would be able to get by if he was a racist; players wouldn't play alongside him if that was his way of thinking. For me, I'd be willing to accept that Messi using the word negro towards a black player isn't racist, but is a difference in culture and a difference in believing what's acceptable to use. If it was proven that Messi had actually used negative adjective as well as the negro, then I'd definitely believe he's being racist. I've read a lot on the South American culture and it's not so black and white as it apparently is over here, there's a big grey area that requires an understanding of their society and their culture. All well and good but also pretty irrelevant. There is a duality of meaning that you correctly refer to, but it is also undeniable that the word negro/negrito is primarily used as an insult when directed at a black person. They would know very quickly that the words were not acceptable, Messi for example lived in Barcelona from the age of 13 and would have known, he would have been told by the first person he said it to. Racism is rife in Argentinian football, I remember a Argentina v Colombia match in the 90s there where the black Colombian subs got so annoyed at the racist abuse they received that they smashed up the subs bench and threw it at the crowd. Vivek Chaudhary's article in the Independent explains it very well, showing the clear and well acknowledged difference between the two uses of the word. Vivek Chaudhary wrote: In one respect, then, Suarez is right. In many countries of South America, those with black hair or dark eyes are often called "negro" and it is not considered offensive. However, what became apparent was that the same word when directed at people of African descent was meant in an offensive way. Many of my South American friends who used the word regularly in relation to someone's hair would not dare to say it to a black person for fear that it could lead to confrontation. I have no doubt that neither Suarez or Messi are racists in the sense that they would discriminate and seek to treat black people any differently to non-black people. They are just using skin colour as the insult that results from a disagreement, not the cause of the disagreement, in the way that in a heated situation you would call a fat person fat or a bald person bald. It's the obvious physical difference so they latch onto that. But to suggest neither knew what they were saying was offensive is just wrong. |
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Roddy B wrote: From what I've read on South America and what we view as 'racist language', there seem to be a few problems with what you're saying. For one, it isn't seen as racist to them and it seems to be more of a case of 'comfortable language' rather than cultural racism. From what I've read, they don't discriminate, they aren't racist and black and white is equal. Negro seems to be merely a term they use almost in a sense that we'd call somebody ginge. Just because you find the word offensive in your language, doesn't mean you can offer an opinion of what is and isn't acceptable to them in their culture. To bring up the Suarez thing, Uruguay's black players (Alvaro Pereira being one) absolutely accept language like that because he's grown up with it in his culture. It doesn't seem to be something used over there as an offensive word, as I mentioned before, it's the addition of things like harsh adjectives and tone that make it racist, rather than the actual word itself. For me, it should be us that shouldn't be imposing our alleged political correctness on other nations and continents. The word negro clearly isn't the same word over there as it is over here, we can't go forcing our language, our interpretation and our no nonsense approach on countries that seem to be getting on just fine as they are with regards to racism. As was mentioned in the Drenthe article, Higuain and Heinze would use it comfortably but were told to stop as it upset/would upset some of their team mates. That's all it really takes, just tell them not to do it if people may find it offensive, but to try and take the high horse approach and condemn them for speaking in totally acceptable terms to them in their language, is just ignorance and inexcusable. For me, racism is more than just the use of a simple word. It's an approach, a way of thinking and I can't for the life of me believe that Messi - a player that's played with the likes of Yaya Toure, Eric Abidal, Samuel Eto'o, Ronaldinho and Lillian Thuram - would be able to get by if he was a racist; players wouldn't play alongside him if that was his way of thinking. For me, I'd be willing to accept that Messi using the word negro towards a black player isn't racist, but is a difference in culture and a difference in believing what's acceptable to use. If it was proven that Messi had actually used negative adjective as well as the negro, then I'd definitely believe he's being racist. I've read a lot on the South American culture and it's not so black and white as it apparently is over here, there's a big grey area that requires an understanding of their society and their culture. All well and good but also pretty irrelevant. There is a duality of meaning that you correctly refer to, but it is also undeniable that the word negro/negrito is primarily used as an insult when directed at a black person. They would know very quickly that the words were not acceptable, Messi for example lived in Barcelona from the age of 13 and would have known, he would have been told by the first person he said it to. Racism is rife in Argentinian football, I remember a Argentina v Colombia match in the 90s there where the black Colombian subs got so annoyed at the racist abuse they received that they smashed up the subs bench and threw it at the crowd. Vivek Chaudhary's article in the Independent explains it very well, showing the clear and well acknowledged difference between the two uses of the word. Vivek Chaudhary wrote: In one respect, then, Suarez is right. In many countries of South America, those with black hair or dark eyes are often called "negro" and it is not considered offensive. However, what became apparent was that the same word when directed at people of African descent was meant in an offensive way. Many of my South American friends who used the word regularly in relation to someone's hair would not dare to say it to a black person for fear that it could lead to confrontation. I have no doubt that neither Suarez or Messi are racists in the sense that they would discriminate and seek to treat black people any differently to non-black people. They are just using skin colour as the insult that results from a disagreement, not the cause of the disagreement, in the way that in a heated situation you would call a fat person fat or a bald person bald. It's the obvious physical difference so they latch onto that. But to suggest neither knew what they were saying was offensive is just wrong. |
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