Re: rl : Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:52 am  

Cruncher wrote:

I agree with you, but I take other posts on board too. It would rankle with our home-grown League lads if clubs were granted financial dispensation to spend a lot of money on Union boys. Only if such a move was brought in alongside a dispensation to pay extra money to players signed from our own Academies would this come close to being viable. As well as encouraging our clubs to develop their own talent, at the same time they'd be encouraged to raid Union for other British talent. I'd love such a situation to come around, but unfortunately it would mean the salary cap was half way to being ditched, which wouldn't suit the vast majority of our poverty stricken SL.

Maybe a more realistic project would be to set up a system whereby our clubs are granted dispensation to pay extra money to existing SL players who are being targetted by Union. We used to do something similar, and it enabled us to keep hold of Radlinski, Cunningham and, for a time at least, Farrell. It would certainly have enabled us to keep hold of Chris Ashton. And before anyone tries to claim that this is now a thing of the past, I'd respectfully remind you that young Thornley is already being courted by Sale.

As is Sean Ainscough.

[DaveO]

Re: rl : Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:47 am  

Father Ted wrote:

Wigan's top five try scorers of all time were all former Union men.
Billy Boston, Martin Offiah, Brian Norgren, Trevor Lake & Johny Ring.
We haven't got wingmen in RL remotely close to their ability.
Boston never played for Wales and Offiah never played for England. Two of the best wingers to play Rugby League.
We should go for Union players and no need for those in 6 nations who are on TV and have high salaries.
There are plenty around in the GP clubs who would be very good at RL and affordable.
The RFL/SL clubs have never come to terms with Union professionalism and it's about time they did.
When I started watching Wigan we had Boston, Saints had Vollenhoven & Leeds had Lewis Jones.
Now we've got Roberts, Saints have Gardner & Leeds have McGuire. FFS!
Noble is right!

You don't half talk some rubbish at times. When Boston and Offiah came over they were not International players and were involved in an amateur game.

RU players of the level they were at are now earning wages at least as comparable as to what RL could afford to offer so what is the incentive to switch? None I would say. Unless we adopt the ludicrous notion of over-paying them compared to comparable RL olayers already in the game

But suppose we did find another Offiah in the RU ranks and got him to play RL? What do you think would happen next? Well I will tell you, RU would simply poach him back again.

Star players in RU routinely earn salaries of £250K so it would be no problem for them to get their ex-players back if they felt like it.

But Noble wasn't on about signing unknowns anyway he was on about the O'Driscoll class of player and that is a none starter given what they earn and can achieve in their sport.

So just what is the point of signing a more average RU player? About the same as signing an average NRL instead of a top class one like Barrett player IMO. None.

There are hundreds of kids playing the game who if given the chance would love to play RL professionally I am sure. Noble is barking up the wrong tree and should be supporting moves to limit overseas players and develop British talent. Given his seeming lack of faith in his own teams young players it comes as no surprise he favours trying to find ready made alternatives.

Dave

[DaveO]

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:31 pm  

tank123 wrote: The player he was after was Andy Powell of Wales in the off season. Powell was coming off contract at the end of the union season. Powell is more than likely the best handling forward in union. Also hes big and agile for his size. Hes a better player than any loose forward or second row we have. Wilkinson was a rumor started on here. As for O'Driscoll hes one heck of a player and would better any SL side. He would never come as we could not afford him, £50K subsidy or not. Noble's suggestion re union players is not as daft as people think. It would give the game a massive publicity boost as well as letting union know it can also be raided. Someone mentioned that if we took 50k off then union would take 200k off. Union in England is not as financially viable as people might think. Que the French: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/london_wasps/7893734.stm Given the RU salary cap leaks anyway and Wasps are concerned it is too restrictive there seems plenty of money to pay to their higher salary cap and if that isn't enough the French do not operate a cap so even more money is available to top players. That may leave second string RU players occupying the top spots in English clubs but then they would still be earning more then we could pay. Dave

tank123 wrote: The player he was after was Andy Powell of Wales in the off season. Powell was coming off contract at the end of the union season. Powell is more than likely the best handling forward in union. Also hes big and agile for his size. Hes a better player than any loose forward or second row we have. Wilkinson was a rumor started on here. As for O'Driscoll hes one heck of a player and would better any SL side. He would never come as we could not afford him, £50K subsidy or not. Noble's suggestion re union players is not as daft as people think. It would give the game a massive publicity boost as well as letting union know it can also be raided. Someone mentioned that if we took 50k off then union would take 200k off. Union in England is not as financially viable as people might think. Que the French: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/london_wasps/7893734.stm Given the RU salary cap leaks anyway and Wasps are concerned it is too restrictive there seems plenty of money to pay to their higher salary cap and if that isn't enough the French do not operate a cap so even more money is available to top players. That may leave second string RU players occupying the top spots in English clubs but then they would still be earning more then we could pay. Dave

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:01 pm  

The biggest threat to union now is the French. If the cap gets increased or removed then clubs like Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle etc will go bankrupt quickly. They are now getting England players as well as southern hemesphere players.

The problem is if clubs go bust there are no other clubs that can step in and run a full time pro outfit in the premiership. That will leave a large number of players used to a salary with no club to take them.

10 years ago in Wales we had approx 8 proffesional clubs. Now there are 4 regional full time sides. That means over half the players who were paid to play full time were either let go or stayed with the clubs but are now amateur.

Its quite ironic the french having a free run to sign whoever they want as only 1 of the french side made it out of the pool groups to the knockout phase of the Heineken Cup. Also France dont have as many pro clubs as England have so the international money is divided between a smaller number of clubs. The best union player Dan Carter took a 5 month contract with a french side. the money they are using will i thnk eventually force England to only have 4-5 professional sides as they cant maintain the domestic game by using international money.

An approach was made to Powell as he was until last season mainly regarded as a sevens player. Last season he improved greatly in the international scene.

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:27 pm  

Its mentioned in todays express that english rugby union is hampered by having a salary cap of £4 million! how can they compete with the big spending french rugby union! If this number for the premiership is correct rugby league is never going to compete with that. Noble is talking rubbish!

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:37 pm  

Saint Simon wrote:

Its mentioned in todays express that english rugby union is hampered by having a salary cap of £4 million! how can they compete with the big spending french rugby union! If this number for the premiership is correct rugby league is never going to compete with that. Noble is talking rubbish!

If this number for the Premiership is correct, but they then act to widen it even more in order to compete with the French, it won't matter what Noble says - Rugby League will cease to exist.

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:33 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Some people obviously didn't understand.

What he said was that EVERY Superleague Club should be allowed to bring in ONE top class Rugby Union player.
Only £50K of that players salary should be counted on the salary cap.

The reasons

1) We could target top class British players

2) It would be good publicity.

3) It would help the International squad.

With the obvious dearth of quality outside backs in our game, it's not such a stupid idea.

Had Union been weaker it would be a good idea based on the reasons above. As it is, I don't see how clubs can afford to bring in an international player. If they earn 300k in Union, how much would it cost for them to defect? I would imagine at least double probably triple...

Even then, Union are likely to counter the move.

That means that clubs could only realistically pick players who aren't good enough to be internationals or taking a punt on young players who haven't proven their potential yet.

I am not sure how it could ever possibly work.

rl : Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:28 pm  

Noble's idea of one Union player per club would not affect youth development. It is separate.
The fact is Union players can make it in League in terms of ability and those I mentioned proved it. Quite a few on here believe that Union players would never make it. How wrong can you be!
Money makes things different very obviously but why would Union take a player back who they never looked at in the first place. Perhaps he wasn't suited to Union. They miss an awful lot of talent, especially England.
When our leading clubs have financial turnovers of £5.5-7m a year the salary cap of £1.6m is a massive under investment in player development.
Once that has been addressed we can have far better youth development and look around Union for that one player per club. We can quite easily do both provided the resources are made available. The Super League clubs will not increase the £1.6m in the near future so we will continue to struggle in player development.
The fundamental reason we do not have sufficient British players being developed is financial under investment by Super League clubs.
The World Cup showed us that we do not have enough players to chose an Intl Squad from and subsequently not enough Intl class players.
We are told the RFL are to publish a report into England's failure and it will be interesting to see their recommendations as how to increase player production. That's if they make such recommendations which I very much doubt.

Re: rl : Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:10 pm  

DaveO wrote:

Why can't anyone see this would be divisive? It basically says RU players are worth more than established RL players.

it basically says better players get paid more, if a club wants to sign an RU player on £300k a year, its no different to going and spending £300k on a Barrett or Lockyer or Thurston

the problem is the risk, and in that area what noble said has a lot of validity

Shane Williams maybe an outstanding RL winger, he could come over and be the best in the world,

he could not, it could take him a year to learn the game, an SL club under the SC simply cannot take that risk, to start the season £3-400k below all the other teams because it is taken up by a player still learning the game would be disasterous for any SL club,

which is why they dont do it, it isnt down to their wages, we can compete for most players, its the risk they represent,

just as an aside you could put out an entire 3/4er line of england players who havent come through the RL system, and it would probably be the best england backline of the past 5 years,

we have brought through 0 world class three-quarters in SL, our best centre of the SL era was an RU player, our best winger was a Gaelic Footballer,

facts are we need to address that fact, and also start competing for the players who have the natural ability in those positions, at the moment RU get most of them

: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:19 pm  

rlcoach wrote:

Had Union been weaker it would be a good idea based on the reasons above. As it is, I don't see how clubs can afford to bring in an international player. If they earn 300k in Union, how much would it cost for them to defect? I would imagine at least double probably triple...

Even then, Union are likely to counter the move.

That means that clubs could only realistically pick players who aren't good enough to be internationals or taking a punt on young players who haven't proven their potential yet.

I am not sure how it could ever possibly work.

or players in between, players with natural talents in who maybe better suited to RL than RU, Varndell would probably be more suited to RL, but he is probably on £100k in RU, which would be a big risk for an RL side, Armitage is in a similar position, there are players like Doherty and Ashton who could be tempted back, Ojo Monye and strettle could make fine RL wingers

there are plenty of fringe RU players who maybe better suited, but no one can ever take a punt on them because it simply costs too much under the SC,

how much poorer would our three-quarter depth be without Raynor and Senior?