Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:46 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Realises he has lost the argument so makes daft comment

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:53 pm  

The pieman wrote:

i've been having this argument with some saints fans on facebook,started off with a former work colleague who was kicking off that Knowles had been banned and that everyone else was having a go

my simple question, and given he uses all the or similar terms to what you have commented above was - if that was McIllorum, Smithies or Partington would you be all over FB claiming that they were **insert here** and should be banned for x number of games, but he was actually trying to condone what Knowles has done as being acceptable, so i just said you have gone right down in my estimation.

The other posters arguing with me wouldnt accept that Wigan or any other team in the league had injuries - only Saints, to the point that it is the only reason they lost any games and the challenge cup semi final cos Wigan were at full strength and they werent as they would have beat us easily - so i just gave up p*ssing into a strong headwind as it was like talking to dumb and dumber and dumberer

redvee.net wrote:

Surely we can't have another year like this re injuries, if we can keep our main 1 to 13 on the pitch there's not going to be anyone to get near us.

Bless em

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:56 pm  

[quote="Stu M"][/quote]

Ok then, I'll bite.....

It was a first past the post system back then....let's look at the league tables for our SEVEN wins in a row looking at the top 3 (or equivalent)

89/90

Wigan 40
Leeds 36
Widnes 34
Bradford 34
Saints 34

90/91

Wigan 42
Widnes 40
Hull 34
Cas 34

91/92

Wigan 44
Saints 36
Cas 32

92/93

Wigan 41
Saints 41
Bradford 30
Widnes 30
Leeds 30
Cas 29

93/94

Wigan 46
Bradford 46
Warrington 46
Cas 39
Halifax 36

94/95

Wigan 56
Leeds 49
Cas 42

95/96

Wigan 36
Leeds 28
Halifax 25

So that's 4 different teams that finished 2nd (4 in 5 years) and a total of 8 different sides that were involved in the top 3.
Two seasons won on PD.
Two seasons won by 4 points or less.

So in our period of dominance we won only 3 titles "easily"

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:02 pm  

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. I have never said we are the greatest team in Rugby League history nor have I ever denied that Wigan are statistically the most successful club.

Indeed I even admit that you are traditionally a bigger club.

My argument is that Saints aren't given due credit for what we have done in the SL era. Every time this has been brought up the retort has been "Yeah but RL existed before SL" or "Yeah but you played less games than anyone else during COVID" or Nicky Kiss's favourite one "There aren't any good teams anymore, the game is getting worse..."

That's my annoyance and why I am so argumentative about it.

The level of consistency we have shown has been staggering. Tomorrow is our 14th Final. In a salary capped sport its bloody impressive

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:04 pm  

Adding more to it....

Challenge Cup then - 7 teams in 8 seasons (including us)
Challenge Cup now - 9 teams in 8 seasons

So the levelling of the playing field has brought an additional two teams to the cup final.

League winners in 25 years (seeing as this is the 25th grand final)

Super League - 4 - Wigan, Saints, Bradford, Leeds
Championship - 12 - Leeds, Dewsbury, Salford, Saints, Fev, Widnes, Hull KR, Bradford, Leigh, Hull FC, Halifax, Wigan

And has lost 8 league winners and gone from 1 winner every 2 years (give or take) to one every 6 (give or take)

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:07 pm  

Stu M wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. I have never said we are the greatest team in Rugby League history nor have I ever denied that Wigan are statistically the most successful club.

Indeed I even admit that you are traditionally a bigger club.

My argument is that Saints aren't given due credit for what we have done in the SL era. Every time this has been brought up the retort has been "Yeah but RL existed before SL" or "Yeah but you played less games than anyone else during COVID" or Nicky Kiss's favourite one "There aren't any good teams anymore, the game is getting worse..."

That's my annoyance and why I am so argumentative about it.

The level of consistency we have shown has been staggering. Tomorrow is our 14th Final. In a salary capped sport its bloody impressive

You claimed it was a level playing field now in an attempt to undermine our success like every fan of every other club does which as I've evidenced it clearly isn't.

Stu M wrote:

Its a hell of a lot more of a level playing field than in your era of dominance.

As evidenced by the fact that we play our 4th different opponent in 4 years tomorrow.

You also said.....................

Stu M wrote:

Serious question then. You think both era's are comparable and both were a level playing field?

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

93/94

Wigan 46
Bradford 46
Warrington 46
Cas 39
Halifax 36

"

Bloody Russell Smith!!

Re: Welsby : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:14 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

You claimed it was a level playing field now in an attempt to undermine our success like every fan of every other club does which as I've evidenced it clearly isn't.

You also said.....................

I can easily use stats to flip your argument on its head.

Nearly half of your 7 titles in a row were won easily (7 pts, 8 pts, 8 pts)

And for all your CC wins the opponents only had to win a small amount of games to get there so there will naturally be lots more different opponents. Quite why you compared CC back then to now I have no idea. The concept hasn't changed, you still only need to win 3 games to get to the Final

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:17 pm  

[Gareth] wrote:

Bless em

They're potentially correct - new coach depending.

Like it or not, but their 1-17 is the best in the league. They currently do most things better than most sides and are the benchmark. There has been some luck to it, but if they win tomorrow then there's no doubting that 4 GF wins in a row is a superb achievement.

The reason why everyone is calling them out on the injuries (well certainly why I am) is because at the start of the season they claimed that they had the best squad and that nobody could touch their squad. Nobody gets in their side from any other club. The second they got a few injuries the injuries card came flying out the wallet faster than Field and French.

The facts are - they have a better 1-17 than most and a better squad than most which is why they've finished top and why they will probably win the GF.

Their seemingly strange obsession with everyone congratulating them and bowing down to them and re-writing history is a tad strange though. Has a little bit of "Liverpool" about it. They've built tomorrow up that a win makes them the greatest side ever because of all of the injuries, but a defeat was tough on them because they had injuries and should be the greatest side ever.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion : Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:22 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

They're potentially correct - new coach depending.

Like it or not, but their 1-17 is the best in the league. They currently do most things better than most sides and are the benchmark. There has been some luck to it, but if they win tomorrow then there's no doubting that 4 GF wins in a row is a superb achievement.

The reason why everyone is calling them out on the injuries (well certainly why I am) is because at the start of the season they claimed that they had the best squad and that nobody could touch their squad. Nobody gets in their side from any other club. The second they got a few injuries the injuries card came flying out the wallet faster than Field and French.

The facts are - they have a better 1-17 than most and a better squad than most which is why they've finished top and why they will probably win the GF.

Their seemingly strange obsession with everyone congratulating them and bowing down to them and re-writing history is a tad strange though. Has a little bit of "Liverpool" about it. They've built tomorrow up that a win makes them the greatest side ever because of all of the injuries, but a defeat was tough on them because they had injuries and should be the greatest side ever.

In the main this is a very good post.

However there is a difference between wanting people to bow down to us (in your words) and actually being respectful and recognising the achivements. When Wigan fans throw COVID as excuses whilst we won or any other excuses that they use then naturally that becomes very annoying and a reason why we (well I certainly do) become very defensive.