Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:50 pm  

Salty wrote:

Looking forward to going on Friday!
Hope we six thousand fans can give the players tremendous support throughout the game, win lose or draw, by raising the roof.
We’re lucky to support the Wigan club which has given us so many great memories.

With Williams onboard or not I’m certain they will continue to do so.

Looks increasingly like once Widdop’s move back to the NRL is sorted Wire will be in a position to announce him as their new recruit.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:52 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Ill take your last point first

Breaking the cardinal rule as you say of never questioning the club.
1/who says anyone cant criticise the club?
2/ you, and many others, have criticised the club many times previously (which is fine) so hardly breaking a cardinal rule thats already been broken, ripped up, shredded and incinerated.

With regards to your initial point, I don't strangely enough disagree
And you then say that it makes the club "shake things up again", and once again I don't 100% disagree.

However, the flip side of that is that stability, process, patience etc get thrown put thebwindow and lead to short term thinking and decision making.

Now I don't think for one minute that tweets, Facebook, forums completely shape the Management/owners decision making. In fact I would be alarmed if it did (although the release of dan sarginson does concern me after something IL said at the fans forum).
But I do think that when people talk about there being a general malaise, or that the club is going backwards a lot of it is shaped from the echo Chambers of Facebook,twitter and forums.

Your reply earlier about going back to 2010 which almost dismisses the last 10 years of history, 2 challenge cups, 3 GF wins (and 3 other appearances) and a world club challenge win (plus 3 other appearances) and asking "why should we bother going" whilst saying that the team doesn't turn up half the time and in effect cheating the paying public/wigan fans is case in point.

I'm no Lam fan, and I have criticised him, but trust me I've been quite restrained on him publicly to what I really think. But like anything else in life, there are times when things go for you, times when they don't.
Bounce of a ball so to speak (and i don't want to do the GF debate again, but SOL showed his achilles heel in that final like he has a couple of times in decision making, plus a couple of other small things that I put down to Lam and culture) cost us a GF 6months ago (about 10games ago or so).
Missing 5 or 6 of our backs hasnt helped, coaching decisions in general havent helped imo, the clubs decision making on certain elements hasnt always been great
However, to go from those observations and in a post almost throw away the achievements of the last 10 years is catastrophising a situation too much.
And IMO thats what Wigan fans (certainly a loud minority) do as well if not better than any other club. Rewrite history to suit todays argument or grievance.

Losing field/French at the same time as the gildart/Marshall long term injuries isn't doing us any good, and I certainly feel we would be having different conversations of all 4 of them had been fit for 90% of the games. The club could be criticised for certain parts of that, others is pure bad luck.

I've seen posters talk about Warringtons ambition, willingness to spend big bucks whilst at the same time no mention that it hasnt go them to the big prize, but more astounding is that they choose to ignore the signings of French, Hastings, Burgess, Bateman and that we are in for George Williams (ok we may not get him, but were doing our best) and beating the club up without acknowledging what they are doing well.

I'm all for criticism, but only if its fair, balanced and done in a way that doesn't rewrite history and neglects all the good stuff

The loud minority (IMO) tried to convince everyone Wane had to go, they got their wish
The loud minority (IMO) told us George was no good, he went, and now are criticising if we don't pay over the odds to get him back!
They told us sutton was rubbish and no big loss
Sarginson rubbish
Etc
Etc
They got what they wanted, well done to them.

I've even seen Wigan fans criticse Wigan for attempting to resign gelling based on a BS rumour and then saying that shows our lack of ambition! Unbelievable

They wanted change, they all agreed on that, they got it, now they're putting the blame somewhere else and all coming up with different reason whatbthe clubs doing wrong and different things they do to fix it,. United in their condemnation of IL/Rads/Wane but divided in their ideas how to fix it.

Things are not all rosey, my big worry when we lost Wane was that we would lose our culture, our identity that he (and maguire and to be fair IL facilitated ) implanted 11/12 years ago, I think we have or are starting to.
Were soft, were easy to play against etc and that would never have happened previously.


And final point
Why go Friday? Or words to that effect.

Because its Wigan, my club, and ill go whenever I can
Its my wife's 50th birthday Friday, half way through the celebrations ill be leaving and going to the game and then rushing back for more drinks after either peed off or happy.
And you know what, week after I'll do the same.
Not with an ellgren jacket in happy clapping, ill be critical of players at times, coaching, occasionally referees. But at the same time giving them credit where its due.

WE ARE WIGAN

Thanks for the reply and your honesty.

Addressing the first point - I do feel like there's (sometimes) a culture on here, or even from the club, that opinions of certain fans don't matter. Now I'm not talking about the the whole team is cr@p type opinions. I called out some BS a few weeks ago for "OTT Bingo" that said none of our guys would get in Saints team. I'm talking more about opinions like, maybe a ground would be a good idea, the badge isn't great or that other sides target better players than us. People who have these opinions (like I do) deserved to be challenged, but the "I know better" approach, or refusal to acknowledge another side or differing opinion doesn't help anyone.

2nd point - I'm in no way dismissing 10 years of success. I, just as much as anyone, enjoyed those big days. I'll be honest however, some of them (the double season particularly) felt a little fraudulent in a way. Or perhaps the high of the big win, wasn't worth some of the lows we'd faced that year. Compare that to 2010 and I really felt that we owned the league and the payoff was a much deserved GF win. Likewise 2011, we didn't win the league, but in the cup we beat Saints, Wire and Leeds. I was happy at the end of the year because I'd seen a super consistent side. I'll happily admit that I want to be entertained as much on Friday Vs KR as I will be in October.

We're all fans (that's why we're on here). I'll still go to the match, but I'll admit that I don't enjoy it like I used to. Maybe I am stuck in my old "glory days" mode, but I also don't think that's a bad thing. I've got incredibly high standards for my club and that stems from what I've seen previously. I'll freely admit that I'd want to see us be the best team in the world again, a team that Australians fear etc. That might be unrealistic, but that should always be the goal for Wigan.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:24 pm  

Holmes & Matautia announced by Wire, the wait continues for GW

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:54 pm  

sergeant pepper wrote:

Thanks for the reply and your honesty.

Addressing the first point - I do feel like there's (sometimes) a culture on here, or even from the club, that opinions of certain fans don't matter. Now I'm not talking about the the whole team is cr@p type opinions. I called out some BS a few weeks ago for "OTT Bingo" that said none of our guys would get in Saints team. I'm talking more about opinions like, maybe a ground would be a good idea, the badge isn't great or that other sides target better players than us. People who have these opinions (like I do) deserved to be challenged, but the "I know better" approach, or refusal to acknowledge another side or differing opinion doesn't help anyone.

2nd point - I'm in no way dismissing 10 years of success. I, just as much as anyone, enjoyed those big days. I'll be honest however, some of them (the double season particularly) felt a little fraudulent in a way. Or perhaps the high of the big win, wasn't worth some of the lows we'd faced that year. Compare that to 2010 and I really felt that we owned the league and the payoff was a much deserved GF win. Likewise 2011, we didn't win the league, but in the cup we beat Saints, Wire and Leeds. I was happy at the end of the year because I'd seen a super consistent side. I'll happily admit that I want to be entertained as much on Friday Vs KR as I will be in October.

We're all fans (that's why we're on here). I'll still go to the match, but I'll admit that I don't enjoy it like I used to. Maybe I am stuck in my old "glory days" mode, but I also don't think that's a bad thing. I've got incredibly high standards for my club and that stems from what I've seen previously. I'll freely admit that I'd want to see us be the best team in the world again, a team that Australians fear etc. That might be unrealistic, but that should always be the goal for Wigan.

Just on your first point
And I know I'm going off on a tangent here

But I've seen quite a lot of talk in the last 3-4 years about "opinions of certain fans don't count", a bit like "our voice is not being heard"
What makes people or in your words "certain fans" think they're not being heard as opposed to other mythical fans saying things and being heard???

I don't think there's a world here were certain posters/tweeters etc are being heard.
I just think in frustration there are people who shout out that they're not being heard, how do we know that your not being heard?

The ground, I would love one, but it ain't going to happen
The badge, I'm ambivalent to it, but they consulted with some fans and went down this route

Now just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean that your not being heard, it's just that the people in charge, who have more information to hand than the likes of me and you ever will have, have gone in another direction.
As usual though, the ones who may not agree with the decisions shout loudest as opposed to the ones who either don't care, think its right who in the main stay silent.

If that is then interpreted as not being heard then fair enough, but I don't think that's correct. (There's a whole new News chanel based on this theory now, its 70/ 80% drivel)

Point 2 is an interesting one
It can be interpreted in so many different ways.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as the saying goes.
8 think the game itself has changed so much, and whilst not falling ginto the trap of blaming it completely on Maguire and Wigan (Anderson at saints and Nathan brown at hudds had already started along this path way before us) we had a part to play.
The RFL in its quest for levelling up have created a situation were the game is very much more "level" than its been and yoy only need to be 10% off and you'll get beat.
My argument is and always has been, you can get 34 blokes out of a pub pre game and have a "level" game. Do3snt mean it'll be any good.
Wane and Leneghan played this game along with Leeds as well as anyone.
They found a formula to play the season and the upcoming ones in the way that worked best.

Weve moved away from this over the last couple of years imo out of choice (as opposed to Leeds out of necessity with the loss of the golden generation and a slip into the lowers 8s which forced them to make some short term decisions that they're still fighting to get away from).
It may not have been pretty at times (although as I say beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but it was effective.
And I dont believe people who say they want to be entertained every week even if were losing, throwing the ball about like a bunch of amateur 9yr olds isn't entertaining, its embarrassing.

I went to a fans open evening early 98 on the return of John monie were the then chairman talking about our 97 season saying that he didn't want wigan to be like Leeds who had Morley/fleary and a pack full of hard cases. I disagreed, I wanted us to be exactly like that.
I want us to be hard to beat, tough, and the type of team that others hate coming to play against.
And my worst fear is that although not as entertaining (in some people's eyes) the saints team under Wolf are exactly that. And IMO are very effective at it.

You used "Shake things up" in an earlier statement.

My simplistic opinion, a new coach (the right coach is the 6million dollar question) resolves 90% of those issues.
He builds the culture, the ethos and with that solid foundation we can build from there.

Best part of 3 years under Lam (I appreciate hes had some challenges and issues) and I still don't know when watching us what we're trying to do.
Its OK saying buy this player or that player, but thats a limited amount of thigs that can change/happen and none of it will improve us if we aren't coached correctly.

Sort that problem out first for me

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:00 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Jl
I went to a fans open evening early 98 on the return of John monie were the then chairman talking about our 97 season saying that he didn't want wigan to be like Leeds who had Morley/fleary and a pack full of hard cases. I disagreed, I wanted us to be exactly like that.

Out of interest, and I know it's off topic, but what did they mean by that? They wanted more flair from the pack at that time?

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:07 pm  

“I'm not too sure where that is at the moment. I'm just trying to drive this club forward. I'm sure you'll hear something about George in the next week.”

Lam admits it's not a great thought that a Wigan junior could go to Warrington over a return, but says they'll cross that bridge when it happens.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:23 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Just on your first point
And I know I'm going off on a tangent here

But I've seen quite a lot of talk in the last 3-4 years about "opinions of certain fans don't count", a bit like "our voice is not being heard"
What makes people or in your words "certain fans" think they're not being heard as opposed to other mythical fans saying things and being heard???

I don't think there's a world here were certain posters/tweeters etc are being heard.
I just think in frustration there are people who shout out that they're not being heard, how do we know that your not being heard?

The ground, I would love one, but it ain't going to happen
The badge, I'm ambivalent to it, but they consulted with some fans and went down this route

Now just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean that your not being heard, it's just that the people in charge, who have more information to hand than the likes of me and you ever will have, have gone in another direction.
As usual though, the ones who may not agree with the decisions shout loudest as opposed to the ones who either don't care, think its right who in the main stay silent.

If that is then interpreted as not being heard then fair enough, but I don't think that's correct. (There's a whole new News chanel based on this theory now, its 70/ 80% drivel)

Point 2 is an interesting one
It can be interpreted in so many different ways.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as the saying goes.
8 think the game itself has changed so much, and whilst not falling ginto the trap of blaming it completely on Maguire and Wigan (Anderson at saints and Nathan brown at hudds had already started along this path way before us) we had a part to play.
The RFL in its quest for levelling up have created a situation were the game is very much more "level" than its been and yoy only need to be 10% off and you'll get beat.
My argument is and always has been, you can get 34 blokes out of a pub pre game and have a "level" game. Do3snt mean it'll be any good.
Wane and Leneghan played this game along with Leeds as well as anyone.
They found a formula to play the season and the upcoming ones in the way that worked best.

Weve moved away from this over the last couple of years imo out of choice (as opposed to Leeds out of necessity with the loss of the golden generation and a slip into the lowers 8s which forced them to make some short term decisions that they're still fighting to get away from).
It may not have been pretty at times (although as I say beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but it was effective.
And I dont believe people who say they want to be entertained every week even if were losing, throwing the ball about like a bunch of amateur 9yr olds isn't entertaining, its embarrassing.

I went to a fans open evening early 98 on the return of John monie were the then chairman talking about our 97 season saying that he didn't want wigan to be like Leeds who had Morley/fleary and a pack full of hard cases. I disagreed, I wanted us to be exactly like that.
I want us to be hard to beat, tough, and the type of team that others hate coming to play against.
And my worst fear is that although not as entertaining (in some people's eyes) the saints team under Wolf are exactly that. And IMO are very effective at it.

You used "Shake things up" in an earlier statement.

My simplistic opinion, a new coach (the right coach is the 6million dollar question) resolves 90% of those issues.
He builds the culture, the ethos and with that solid foundation we can build from there.

Best part of 3 years under Lam (I appreciate hes had some challenges and issues) and I still don't know when watching us what we're trying to do.
Its OK saying buy this player or that player, but thats a limited amount of thigs that can change/happen and none of it will improve us if we aren't coached correctly.

Sort that problem out first for me

Maybe not heard was the wrong phrase, maybe unable to see a different opinion & being too defensive, or at least that's certainly the case on here. Yesterday is a good example, i spoke about different players who chose loyalty over cash. Cam Smith retiring instead of playing on somewhere else, Bellamy reportedly sticking with the Storm instead of moving home to the broncos (for more cash too). SOL sticking with Wigan and going into the HOF etc. You listen to some posters on here and it's like that doesn't happen and we're just blinkered fans who aren't in the real world.

I agree the stadium won't happen. That's fine, I'm talking more about the simple "stadiums don't work, look at Saints" approach and an inability to be challenged when people say they do. Maybe it's me who just wants to chew the fat on it and others can't be ar$£ed.

Talking about "on the pitch", we've undoubtedly played the game better than most - especially when Wane was here. You said earlier about "short changing" the Wigan public and I wouldn't go as far as saying that's what I meant, but it is right to a certain degree.

Funnily you should mention being entertained. I've said a million times that it's dangerous ground for coaches to go into. Entertainment is subjective and like you, I prefer the hard stuff to the flashy stuff. What coaches can and should do imo is be consistent. That's what Madge did and that's what kept me coming back. No Jekyll and Hyde type stuff, just 100% every week.

A new coach is needed (even though some still think he's the dogs b's). Madge and Holbrook are the examples of not needing a squad refit if the coach is right.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:26 pm  

[Gareth] wrote:

Holmes & Matautia announced by Wire

Well isn't that a shock.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:43 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

Out of interest, and I know it's off topic, but what did they mean by that? They wanted more flair from the pack at that time?

Its a long time ago now, and ill check with the lad who i was sat with at the time (believe it or not wigans current kit man) but it was basically a slight or a dig at Leeds and their "Thuggery".
My opinion was that they were bloody hard to beat, tough and exactly the type of pack we needed.
You have to remember we had, a bit like now, just come out of a period of dominance and culture that had lasted 10 years (ok the dorahay blip of 6months was in there) but through lowe/monie and west we had an identity.
And for all the star names we were bloody tough and hard to beat

97, some good results but some absolutely awful ones and more over we were soft, easy to play against.

Leeds on the other hand had gone from being also rans, easy beats, to a team that fought for every inch on the field, mostly legally, sometimes they had to do what they had to do. I admired them for that.

Although one or two of the old guard, cowie, o'connor, farrell were in there we weren't as tough as we used to be. That will to win that Betts/Bell/skerrett/platt etc brought to the team was eroding. Wed been dishing it out for years, we started to have to learn how to take it.

Now with virtually the same players and a couple of astute signings not on mega bucks Monie turned that around in 98. It probably forced a false dawn if I'm honest as I think the management (whelan/mo) thought we were only 1 signing or a new coach away from dominating and that attitude meant we didn't have a stable environment for the next 10 years or so.

I'm always reminded of Cunnighams response when asked about why Saints became the dominant side of the late 90s and early 00s
His reply was that Hanley taught the club and its players how to win, how to be tough when things weren't going their way and still win.

Thats what we had under Maguire and then Wane
I'm not convinced, in fact I'm sure, we don't have it now.

Re: George Williams : Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:23 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

Its a long time ago now, and ill check with the lad who i was sat with at the time (believe it or not wigans current kit man) but it was basically a slight or a dig at Leeds and their "Thuggery".
My opinion was that they were bloody hard to beat, tough and exactly the type of pack we needed.
You have to remember we had, a bit like now, just come out of a period of dominance and culture that had lasted 10 years (ok the dorahay blip of 6months was in there) but through lowe/monie and west we had an identity.
And for all the star names we were bloody tough and hard to beat

97, some good results but some absolutely awful ones and more over we were soft, easy to play against.

Leeds on the other hand had gone from being also rans, easy beats, to a team that fought for every inch on the field, mostly legally, sometimes they had to do what they had to do. I admired them for that.

Although one or two of the old guard, cowie, o'connor, farrell were in there we weren't as tough as we used to be. That will to win that Betts/Bell/skerrett/platt etc brought to the team was eroding. Wed been dishing it out for years, we started to have to learn how to take it.

Now with virtually the same players and a couple of astute signings not on mega bucks Monie turned that around in 98. It probably forced a false dawn if I'm honest as I think the management (whelan/mo) thought we were only 1 signing or a new coach away from dominating and that attitude meant we didn't have a stable environment for the next 10 years or so.

I'm always reminded of Cunnighams response when asked about why Saints became the dominant side of the late 90s and early 00s
His reply was that Hanley taught the club and its players how to win, how to be tough when things weren't going their way and still win.

Thats what we had under Maguire and then Wane
I'm not convinced, in fact I'm sure, we don't have it now.

Interesting read, thanks for that!