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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:59 pm  
O'Neill is as much a #13 as he is a #9, he played a lot of his scholarship and academy rugby in the loose forward position.
However I don't see either him or Shorrocks moving Smithies who has been excellent for Wigan this season.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:25 pm  
sergeant pepper wrote:
Ok, I'll bite...

What utility value are we talking about? Playing in a few different positions, but not actually doing anything of note? He's got great work rate, but you can say that for almost every other forward at Wigan.

Obviously just an opinion, but I'd say that Powell (if it came to it)
would have more impact at 13 than Shorrocks and we'd also benefit from O'Neill at 9 too.

It also isn't about if he'd be in our 1st choice 17 either. It's about certain players getting repeat opportunities & not performing, whilst others don't get a shot. Nicholson should have played more this year, Halsall & McDonnell too.


Your point was that he replaced O'Neill in the squad? That's because he covers the backrow & hooker and allows cover at centre as well, and yes we can presume that's because he brings a high work rate and a good attitude. Peet appears to want Powell to do the full 80 if possible and play 4 forwards on the bench (3 of them props) and none of the other young backrows offer the utility that Shorrocks does so he usually takes that 4th bench spot.
To be fair I actually agree about him not offering enough quality in those positions and that's why I say he wouldn't be near the 17 if everyone was fit (I couldn't for the life of me understand how he started at Magic over Smithies) but its a pragmatic choice based on who's available and covering eventualities during the game.

Possibly agree that Nicholson & Mcdonnell should have got more playing time but when you consider how the young forwards have been flogged over the last 2 years its fair for the management team to try to balance their involvement, it was clear from Peets comments when he left that there was a pathway there for Nicholson to break into the 1st team, probably next year.
I think Hallsall will get more time next year, he's impressed whenever he's played.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:32 pm  
Rogues Gallery wrote:
O'Neill is as much a #13 as he is a #9, he played a lot of his scholarship and academy rugby in the loose forward position.
However I don't see either him or Shorrocks moving Smithies who has been excellent for Wigan this season.


Smithies has really stepped up, I think if everyone is fit he interchanges with Ellis at 13, with the props being 4 of Cooper, Singleton, Havard, Byrne & Mago.
Bateman & Farrell at second row (KPP to centre) Tommy L on the bench to cover the halves and hooker. That's some pack compared to last year.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:53 pm  
Rogues Gallery wrote:
O'Neill is as much a #13 as he is a #9, he played a lot of his scholarship and academy rugby in the loose forward position.
However I don't see either him or Shorrocks moving Smithies who has been excellent for Wigan this season.


I was going to post that I remembered him playing 13 during his loan spell at Widnes. Obviously there's a gulf between playing 13 in the championship and playing there in SL.

Smithies has been absolutely fantastic this year and I agree that he's a starter. My argument was more about who goes on the bench, or why Shorrocks is preferred. O'Neill offers just as much, or I should say a combo of him and Powell in the squad offers plenty of options too.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:04 pm  
I was sat earlier thinking what a great season Smithies is having and I’ve compared him many times to Morgan Knowles. I think Knowles is a player Smithies should look to emulate and potentially surpass. I thought I’d have a look at their stats side by side earlier and was pleasantly surprised that Smithies is comparing very well in most key areas and in 2 less appearances.This is far from trying to derail another thread and turn it in to a Wigan/Saints thing but I rate Knowles massively and it’s so good to see Smithies now stepping up.

The stats for anyone interested were-

Appearances
Smithies-15 Knowles-17

Carries
Smithies-152 Knowles-151

Metres
Smithies-1084 Knowles-1004

Avg gain
Smithies-7m Knowles-6.68m

Tackles
Smithies-483 Knowles-493

Missed tackles
Smithies-7 Knowles-47

Penalties
Smithies-4 Knowles-17

Errors
Smithies-7 Knowles-11

Try’s
Smithies-0 Knowles-2

I will add Knowles defends in a different system to Wigan and the missed tackles and penalties really highlights that and aren’t as horrendous as they look on paper. I also don’t think Knowles is having his best season in truth. It’s been a great 2022 for Smithies so far. He’s really kicked on and has plenty of improvement in him yet.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:50 pm  
NickyKiss wrote:
I was sat earlier thinking what a great season Smithies is having and I’ve compared him many times to Morgan Knowles. I think Knowles is a player Smithies should look to emulate and potentially surpass. I thought I’d have a look at their stats side by side earlier and was pleasantly surprised that Smithies is comparing very well in most key areas and in 2 less appearances.This is far from trying to derail another thread and turn it in to a Wigan/Saints thing but I rate Knowles massively and it’s so good to see Smithies now stepping up.

The stats for anyone interested were-

Appearances
Smithies-15 Knowles-17

Carries
Smithies-152 Knowles-151

Metres
Smithies-1084 Knowles-1004

Avg gain
Smithies-7m Knowles-6.68m

Tackles
Smithies-483 Knowles-493

Missed tackles
Smithies-7 Knowles-47

Penalties
Smithies-4 Knowles-17

Errors
Smithies-7 Knowles-11

Try’s
Smithies-0 Knowles-2

I will add Knowles defends in a different system to Wigan and the missed tackles and penalties really highlights that and aren’t as horrendous as they look on paper. I also don’t think Knowles is having his best season in truth. It’s been a great 2022 for Smithies so far. He’s really kicked on and has plenty of improvement in him yet.


Really interesting stats. Could you clarify what you mean by
a different system impacting the missed tackles/penalties? I think Smithies plays 80 minutes - don't think Knowles always does.

Smithies was probably our best player tonight as well. I'm not convinced you would see that much difference between Smithies and Knowles at 13 for England.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:14 pm  
MadDogg wrote:
Really interesting stats. Could you clarify what you mean by
a different system impacting the missed tackles/penalties? I think Smithies plays 80 minutes - don't think Knowles always does.

Smithies was probably our best player tonight as well. I'm not convinced you would see that much difference between Smithies and Knowles at 13 for England.


Saints absolutely fly off the line and that’s lead by Knowles, so he’s constantly getting stepped, trying to out shots on people etc and that leads to loads of missed tackles and penalties for offsides. It was exactly the same with Micky Mac in his time with us. Our defence looks to be more passive and seems to be happy to give up ground to the opposition, in the hope then that you’re nice and organised and nobody is shooting the line, leaving gaps. That then means Smithies isn’t getting pinged for infringements or missing tackles by trying to get up and bash people. They’re still very impressive numbers for Smithies mind. His error rate is so low, his missed tackles extremely impressive and we can be extremely pleased with his discipline (cup final aside), especially when it’s been considered a problem in the past.
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:34 pm  
NickyKiss wrote:
Saints absolutely fly off the line and that’s lead by Knowles, so he’s constantly getting stepped, trying to out shots on people etc and that leads to loads of missed tackles and penalties for offsides. It was exactly the same with Micky Mac in his time with us. Our defence looks to be more passive and seems to be happy to give up ground to the opposition, in the hope then that you’re nice and organised and nobody is shooting the line, leaving gaps. That then means Smithies isn’t getting pinged for infringements or missing tackles by trying to get up and bash people. They’re still very impressive numbers for Smithies mind. His error rate is so low, his missed tackles extremely impressive and we can be extremely pleased with his discipline (cup final aside), especially when it’s been considered a problem in the past.


Will be interesting to see how Knowles does with a ref that takes him back the 10 :MOTOR:
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Re: James McDonnell : Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 pm  
We did wbat the top sides do tonight and we won convincingly.

I can't help but look back at last season and I see a boring, drab, difficult 10 point win that was only secured late on. Part of me sees a narrow defeat.

Instead, we're 2nd in the table with a trophy in the cabinet.

Remind me again why Peet shouldn't have got the job?
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Re: James McDonnell : Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:24 am  
Interesting about Smithies, cos it's not so long back people here (yeah, me, but not just me) were touting Shorrocks as a possible future 13 for Wigan. but it's beyond doubt that Smithies has really kicked on this season, and it's hard to argue with him not holding onto that shirt, barring injuries.
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