Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:20 am  

Me and a couple of mates sat over breakfast yesterday talking about the selections and discussed how Peet has got so much right so far but I felt he got a couple wrong on Saturday. I didn’t get Shorrocks starting at all and I also didn’t agree with Cust coming straight back in. It was such an intense game and he was knackered at the end. His defence isn’t great anyway but he looked physically incapable of getting over to Batchelor for the winner. I don’t think he has any issues with his fitness but 6 weeks out clearly hurt him (and us) there. I also can’t agree with Powell seemingly being an 80 minute hooker and us having no option on the bench to mix things up there.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:33 am  

I'd add Isa to that list. The unforced error at the play the ball when we're just looking to control sets was a big reason for the loss. He gets up and plays the ball properly and the Grace try never happens. KPP pulling out had a massive effect on us as did having to replace the very solid Ellis with an all but non-playing Partington. Then down to 12 men for the last quarterish of the game was just too much. Many reasons to be optimistic though

With regards to Saints being dominant in the middle; I think that's being way over emphasised as some marker as to who is best. Sure, we'd like more go forward without doubt but I'm equally sure they'd like to be able to score from anywhere on the field like we can. They play their way, we play ours. Our way won us the semi final and, red card aside, would have won us this one. We're the new Entertainers and that'll do for me

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:40 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

I'd add Isa to that list. The unforced error at the play the ball when we're just looking to control sets was a big reason for the loss. He gets up and plays the ball properly and the Grace try never happens. KPP pulling out had a massive effect on us as did having to replace the very solid Ellis with an all but non-playing Partington. Then down to 12 men for the last quarterish of the game was just too much. Many reasons to be optimistic though

With regards to Saints being dominant in the middle; I think that's being way over emphasised as some marker as to who is best. Sure, we'd like more go forward without doubt but I'm equally sure they'd like to be able to score from anywhere on the field like we can. They play their way, we play ours. Our way won us the semi final and, red card aside, would have won us this one. We're the new Entertainers and that'll do for me

How can you be so sure? We could still have won without the red card, no-one knows. We have beaten teams with 12 men before as I'm sure Wigan have. I was confident that we were turning the screw prior to the red card, we won the arm wrestle and I thought Wigan looked gassed. Clearly the French try out of nothing was superb individual play from Field.

Secondly, whilst I agree that Wigan certainly have more strike and pace, this "Saints only play through the middle" is rubbish. We played a certain way on Saturday due to the players missing. Percival is as good a strike centre as anyone and Makinson is the top try scorer.

I'd go as far to say that before Dodd got injured we were as entertaining as anyone (bar Wigan). Matautia was in superb form on that left edge with Lomax and Percival and we were scoring some great tries.

Field and French will destroy anyone and I fully understand the entertainers tag, I just feel that we are wrongly labelled as a down the middle team, some of which stems from how good our defence is that forces mistakes on other teams and suffocates them. I've read comments from Peet today praising how well we front load our defence.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:52 am  

Stu M wrote:

How can you be so sure? We could still have won without the red card, no-one knows. We have beaten teams with 12 men before as I'm sure Wigan have. I was confident that we were turning the screw prior to the red card, we won the arm wrestle and I thought Wigan looked gassed. Clearly the French try out of nothing was superb individual play from Field.

Secondly, whilst I agree that Wigan certainly have more strike and pace, this "Saints only play through the middle" is rubbish. We played a certain way on Saturday due to the players missing. Percival is as good a strike centre as anyone and Makinson is the top try scorer.

I'd go as far to say that before Dodd got injured we were as entertaining as anyone (bar Wigan). Matautia was in superb form on that left edge with Lomax and Percival and we were scoring some great tries.

Field and French will destroy anyone and I fully understand the entertainers tag, I just feel that we are wrongly labelled as a down the middle team, some of which stems from how good our defence is that forces mistakes on other teams and suffocates them. I've read comments from Peet today praising how well we front load our defence.

Fair comment Stu but I disagree. Makinson is a good finisher but he's not a length of the fielder against anyone with pace. Same for Percival. Grace is really your only player with that kind of pace. More importantly though, you don't set up to play that way unlike ourselves. You play an attritional forward based game which is fair enough as that's where your advantage lies. But 'entertaining' (for all bar Saints fans) it's not. It reminds me of similar criticism Wigan got in the Madge era. Wigan fans found it extremely entertaining but for the most part opposition fans not so much. No amount of us arguing to the contrary would change that opinion as yours won't now.

I can't say for certain we would have won of course. It's just an opinion. Even with the sending off we were a couple of minutes from beating you so (along with the semi win) the point I'm making still holds.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:24 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Fair comment Stu but I disagree. Makinson is a good finisher but he's not a length of the fielder against anyone with pace. Same for Percival. Grace is really your only player with that kind of pace. More importantly though, you don't set up to play that way unlike ourselves. You play an attritional forward based game which is fair enough as that's where your advantage lies. But 'entertaining' (for all bar Saints fans) it's not. It reminds me of similar criticism Wigan got in the Madge era. Wigan fans found it extremely entertaining but for the most part opposition fans not so much. No amount of us arguing to the contrary would change that opinion as yours won't now.

I can't say for certain we would have won of course. It's just an opinion. Even with the sending off we were a couple of minutes from beating you so (along with the semi win) the point I'm making still holds.

And that's a fair response. I guess its how you describe entertaining. Other than Grace are we likely to score a try from deep inside our own half? Probably not and I fully agree that we haven't got that pace across our 1-7 (although Welsby is surprisingly quick once he gets going)

However if we score from 20m out by the ball going through 6 or 7 players hands and Makinson with a diving finish in the corner, then that for me is still entertaining.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:26 am  

After a couple of seasons of being nowhere near Saints we're competitive again and getting royally entertained along the way.
Will they start as favourites if we meet in the play-offs, certainly, but will they know they've been in a game, definitely, do for me after the last few seasons of drudgery

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:37 am  

--[ WW ]-- wrote:

Exactly. Singleton was committed to the tackle he was expecting to make. Sironen started to fall after Field got his legs, giving BS a fraction of a second to react. If people think he can change his body position in that moment to avoid contact with the head they are deluded.

If that's the rule though then maybe we should coach our players to start falling as they approach defenders knowing that any defender making contact with their head will be leaving the field. One we've whittled the opposition down by a few players French and Field can rip them to pieces.

Ah yeah, encouraging players to voluntarily take shots to the head sounds like a really good idea

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:42 am  

Stu M wrote:

And that's a fair response. I guess its how you describe entertaining. Other than Grace are we likely to score a try from deep inside our own half? Probably not and I fully agree that we haven't got that pace across our 1-7 (although Welsby is surprisingly quick once he gets going)

However if we score from 20m out by the ball going through 6 or 7 players hands and Makinson with a diving finish in the corner, then that for me is still entertaining.

Indeed Stu. So is a second rower running a good line a la Faz or a little chip, chase and regather from a clever half back. What I'm saying is they aren't Field/French last try on Saturday entertaining. Those sorts of try even get opposition fans on their feet.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:10 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Me and a couple of mates sat over breakfast yesterday talking about the selections and discussed how Peet has got so much right so far but I felt he got a couple wrong on Saturday. I didn’t get Shorrocks starting at all and I also didn’t agree with Cust coming straight back in. It was such an intense game and he was knackered at the end. His defence isn’t great anyway but he looked physically incapable of getting over to Batchelor for the winner. I don’t think he has any issues with his fitness but 6 weeks out clearly hurt him (and us) there. I also can’t agree with Powell seemingly being an 80 minute hooker and us having no option on the bench to mix things up there.

This isn't a knock, or dig at Peet as I can't overstate how happy i am and how good it is to be a Wigan fan at the min. I do however think that they club hasn't been as ruthless as it needs to be with certain players. Personally, I can't believe Nicholson didn't get more time especially when Shorrocks and Partington have both played at 13 - neither, imo, are good enough.

Re: Saints (m) : Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:12 pm  

Stu M wrote:

And that's a fair response. I guess its how you describe entertaining. Other than Grace are we likely to score a try from deep inside our own half? Probably not and I fully agree that we haven't got that pace across our 1-7 (although Welsby is surprisingly quick once he gets going)

However if we score from 20m out by the ball going through 6 or 7 players hands and Makinson with a diving finish in the corner, then that for me is still entertaining.

Welsby has shown he’s rapid in the two leagues games against Wigan. He wasn’t far off closing Field down on Good Friday and French couldn’t get to him on Saturday. (Was it him who closed French down in the cup semi as well? Can’t remember although French wasn’t match fit then) It’s a different sort of pace I guess. Maybe a bit Radlinski like, i.e not explosive off the mark but sustained pace over a distance.