: Thu May 28, 2009 2:06 pm  

Boris wrote:

Whilst comparing himself to Wayne Bennett, labelling LSOW as a 7 year old and inferring those that watch the NRL on the internet need to 'spend time with their families'.

I did no such thing what so ever, was simply making a highly exagerated statement to highlight the point.

As i said ealier it was both you and Last Son that claimed his form over the last 2 years has been patchy, i simply highlighted the Dally M would suggest otherwise. Do you still stand by the fact his form over the last 2 years has been patchy as i have seen you have chosen to reduce that statement to this season.

Think you also need to stop reading between the lines, i have no idea what anybodies personal circumstances are just as you do not know mine, all i said was PERSONALLY i do not have time to nor would i wish to watch more rugby than i do, my lifestle will not allow for this.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:09 pm  

jonh wrote:

Agreed Orford has no Sl experience, i will counter that by saying a good few Aussies do not make the grade in SL or only turn up when the weather is nice, but rarely are these 7's

Rarely these are 7's? Name a few then. The argument is now changing, this is now looking the success of Aussie halfbacks in SL, but you will change it to suit you.
So lets look at your point about Aussie 7's in SL

-Smith hasn't exactly set the world on fire at Wigan
-Monaghan at Wire has been patchy to say the least
-Matthew Head at Hull couldn't live up to the success he had at ST George
-Brent Sherwin at Cas

Looking further back..

Matty Johns at our own club wasn't as good as he was back in Aus.

.

Does he even want to come to the UK? Never ever stated that he did. .[/quote]

Has Long ever stated he wants to play for Wigan again? Has he said on many occasions he wants to finish his career at Saints? Yes. The truth is both would only sign for Wigan for financial reasons.

This have never ever been said, its come from you to back up your own point.

.[/quote]You bang on about Orfords stats but what about Longs.[/quote]

Not sure i do bang on about Orfords stats simply highlighted that yourself and Boris claim his for has been patchy for the last couple of years, when infact he is the current Dally M and lead his side to the NRL title, so hardly the form of a patchy player in my opinion?

The initial point was that Long was my choice, regardless of the awards Orford have received. Tim Smith has won a top award in Aus and look at how successful he's not been over here. Awards doesn't guarantee a great signing.

.[/quote]20 rep caps
won 3 Lance Todd trophies
Scored over 2000 career points .[/quote]

Very impressive but clearly he is not the same player, he can still lead his team round the park, but is nowhere near the player he was when he won these accolades. I do not dispute he has been a wonderful player and had a great career simply put those days are long behind him given his form. Should we resign Andy Farrell or sign Paul Sculthorpe? They have impressive stats from yesteryear, it does not make them the same player now or in 2010.

Looking at the age of Orford do you think he also will be at the top of his game? We are discussing two halves both in their 30's they are clearly not long term signings. If either or sign the idea is not to sign a player in his peak but someone with experience to help others and develop what we currently have, so your point is void as both are over 30.

.[/quote]Played all his games in SL. Experienced and local.
Won't feel the need to go back home, cos he's local unlike a potential Orford..[/quote]

Fair point, but really we can only speculate on how Orford will react to living in Wigan more seem to enjoy it than not.

Just as you can't speculate Orfords success in the NRL will translate to the SL

.[/quote]When have I ever said I'm hellbent on Long when I also said sign Myler as the long term future 7 of our club?.[/quote]

The stance you are taking ducking the facts and firing weak counterarguments suggests you are hellbent on signing Long

What a crock. I've counted each one of your points and stated how I would like Myler long term, this clearly states how I'm not hellbent on Long and how you thinking that is in your head.

.[/quote]How many times have you seen Orford play this season? Do you know where Manly are in the Aussie league?[/quote]

Once again look back over the Setanta listings count them up and you will have a figure.[/quote]

So basically hardly any. Your are banging on about a player you have hardly ever seen. Are you sure you're not arguing for the sake of it? I mean, you are arguing your point for a player you have hardly ever watched. Lets just hope Wigan pay more attention to potential signings than you do.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:13 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

This is painful. The bloke has never stated you have no right to an opinion. He is simply having a discussion, which isn't all that strange on a discussion forum.

You're the one who starting spitting the dummy out for someone having a different view, get over yourself.

In my opinion, Long for a number of reasons would be a poor option for Wigan. Orford is not the absolutely ideal solution but for me is the best option available to us at this point.

You need to go back and read the posts. I clearly did not wish to take this argument any further. But Jonh persisted with insults which Boris has highlighted.

I wasn't the one to get personal or offensive. You need to read through before passing such a comment.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:16 pm  

Fight Fight Fight!!!

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:20 pm  

jonh wrote:

I did no such thing what so ever, was simply making a highly exagerated statement to highlight the point.

As i said ealier it was both you and Last Son that claimed his form over the last 2 years has been patchy, i simply highlighted the Dally M would suggest otherwise. Do you still stand by the fact his form over the last 2 years has been patchy as i have seen you have chosen to reduce that statement to this season.
.

I equated my statement to highlight that Orford, despite winning the Dally M, had a tendency within games to be 'patchy'.

jonh wrote:

Think you also need to stop reading between the lines, i have no idea what anybodies personal circumstances are just as you do not know mine, all i said was PERSONALLY i do not have time to nor would i wish to watch more rugby than i do, my lifestle will not allow for this.

That is good for you. Ergo your judgment on NRL players is limited.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:26 pm  

why does everyone hate jonh he seems fairly right so far.


Anyway, for me, long is just a massive no-no! Yes he's still a decent play, probably better than most, but he's going down quickly. This added to the fact it would link him up with gleeson again, and still would take a large wage i imagine.

Added to the fact that saints have deemed him not good enough for another contract, so why should he be good enough for us?

As for orford, he's a good scrum half, not world class but not far off. But with his added leadership skills (which no-one can deny he has) i think he would make a very big impact at wigan. We still lack on-field leaders, with tim smith being one of the few i see shouting about and organising, where are we gonna be when he leaves?

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:27 pm  

Ian Lenagan has just been on the radio and stated he won't be signing either Sean Long or Matt Orford because he wants peace to break out between Last son of Wigan and Jonh

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:27 pm  

Boris wrote:

How very existential. The point is that Wigan should not investing a big part of the salary cap in a player who is basically being acquired as the 'best of a bad bunch'.

Existential?

You're the one who used the phrase 'the absolutely ideal solution'. I asked if such a player could be found anywhere. To which I suspect the answer is 'no' - given the restrictions of the salary cap.

In which case what's the point complaining about buying 'the best of a bad bunch', when the only other choice would seem to be buying someone who isn't the best of a bad bunch.

I would agree that investing a large chunk of the cap in a poor player would be ridiculous. But opinions seem to vary about Orford - some say he's poor, some say he's good. I'd also point out, that he has't been signed yet, and even if he is, we'll never know how much of the cap he's taking.

It's an interesting discussion, but there's quite a lot of hot air being blown here - and for no real reason.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:28 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Ian Lenagan has just been on the radio and stated he won't be signing either Sean Long or Matt Orford because he wants peace to break out between Last son of Wigan and Jonh

EDIT: He just text me the same thing!

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:28 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

Does he even want to come to the UK? Never ever stated that he did. .

Has Long ever stated he wants to play for Wigan again? Has he said on many occasions he wants to finish his career at Saints? Yes. The truth is both would only sign for Wigan for financial reasons.

This have never ever been said, its come from you to back up your own point.

.[/quote]You bang on about Orfords stats but what about Longs.[/quote]

Not sure i do bang on about Orfords stats simply highlighted that yourself and Boris claim his for has been patchy for the last couple of years, when infact he is the current Dally M and lead his side to the NRL title, so hardly the form of a patchy player in my opinion?

The initial point was that Long was my choice, regardless of the awards Orford have received. Tim Smith has won a top award in Aus and look at how successful he's not been over here. Awards doesn't guarantee a great signing.

.[/quote]20 rep caps
won 3 Lance Todd trophies
Scored over 2000 career points .[/quote]

Very impressive but clearly he is not the same player, he can still lead his team round the park, but is nowhere near the player he was when he won these accolades. I do not dispute he has been a wonderful player and had a great career simply put those days are long behind him given his form. Should we resign Andy Farrell or sign Paul Sculthorpe? They have impressive stats from yesteryear, it does not make them the same player now or in 2010.

Looking at the age of Orford do you think he also will be at the top of his game? We are discussing two halves both in their 30's they are clearly not long term signings. If either or sign the idea is not to sign a player in his peak but someone with experience to help others and develop what we currently have, so your point is void as both are over 30.

.[/quote]Played all his games in SL. Experienced and local.
Won't feel the need to go back home, cos he's local unlike a potential Orford..[/quote]

Fair point, but really we can only speculate on how Orford will react to living in Wigan more seem to enjoy it than not.

Just as you can't speculate Orfords success in the NRL will translate to the SL

.[/quote]When have I ever said I'm hellbent on Long when I also said sign Myler as the long term future 7 of our club?.[/quote]

The stance you are taking ducking the facts and firing weak counterarguments suggests you are hellbent on signing Long

What a crock. I've counted each one of your points and stated how I would like Myler long term, this clearly states how I'm not hellbent on Long and how you thinking that is in your head.

.[/quote]How many times have you seen Orford play this season? Do you know where Manly are in the Aussie league?[/quote]

Once again look back over the Setanta listings count them up and you will have a figure.[/quote]

So basically hardly any. Your are banging on about a player you have hardly ever seen. Are you sure you're not arguing for the sake of it? I mean, you are arguing your point for a player you have hardly ever watched. Lets just hope Wigan pay more attention to potential signings than you do. [/quote]


Finally you have stopped moaning and continued the debate top notch.

Not sure of the first point you make in bold. Are you claiming Long has never said he wants to finish his career at Saints?

Tim Smith won a rookie of the year award and was not signed directly from the NRL he was signed from obscurity without playing a game or training in a pro environment, as he has found his feet in the pro ranks he has shown some good form. Orford has not had the same background as Smith he would be moving from pro to pro environment without all the added bagage so i think its a poor comparisson.

Both are over 30 but Orford is still younger he has just short of 2 years on Long which in real terms at there age is a significant difference, maybe not 5 years ago but certainly at this stage of there career. Given Orford had the best season of his life last year it shows the ability is still there, i do not think you can say the same about Long. If we offered Orford a 2 year deal he would only just be older than Long is now when it finishes.

Until this post you clearly have ducked the debate.

Both players are a short term 2 year fix clearly Myler is a long term option but you cannot blood them together without having a senior partner to step in when required hence why we are having this debate on the merrits of Long/Orford.

The other word of warning that would put me right off Long is this, remember the effect Millward a man dripping in honours won at Saints faired at Wigan, he failed. He failed because of the history between the 2 clubs and the part he played in it. He never ever had the dressing room, something we could not risk our 7 and leader around the pitch not to have. Attempting to have a character like Long who has for so long been an integral part of Saints and a pain in the players side in my opinion as happened with Millward, i do not think he could ever win the dressing room.

Once again you claim i have hardly ever seen him which is plain wrong.