Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:28 am  

Wirefan wrote:

I agree with you Wires71 in terms of backing Smith, but my patience is wearing thin.

Someone recently compared him to Arsene Wenger on here. I think that's a pretty good comparison from where I am sitting. Not from a spending money perspective, but in terms of his apparent belligerence. Us Fans always think they have all the right answers and rarely are we right in reality, but at the moment, it's plain as day to anyone and his dog that Russell and Evans on the wing is such a terrible option when we have 2 designated wingers sat in the reserves. Yes we don't know the behind the scenes goings on with either player and it's not as if we have 2 modern day Bevan's sat in the stands, but sometimes you just have to work with what you have for the benefit of the here and now.

Frustrating is the word.

Arsene Wenger is a good comparison. But he is endorsed by his board as they don't have the real ambition/expectation to win the sports biggest prizes and he delivers exceptional European qualification and Premier league final positions per £ spent.

I think Warrington are different. I think there is an attitude now where aspirant aim is to win the GF and CC each season. Fundamentally Smith will be judged on results as the Wembley wins fade into folklore. Perhaps the contract extension was a mistake and, with hindsight, we could have ran the risk of losing him to Hull KR (as if) and made a balanced decision at the end of this season.

Tony will feel bombproof though I suspect, so much so he can come up with his, crazy to us, selections and re-invention of the role of winger into red zone ball returner. His hubris cannot be denied. The BS I read in the Guardian about how the Wigan loss will be "good for us" shows he is losing it a bit. Total lack of consideration for all the fans that turned up.

I think a meek exit from the semis this time and I may come to the conclusion that Smith won't get us the GF win we want so much.

If we win tonight you can take this post and shove it up my backside though

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:34 am  

Wires71 wrote:

Added. Yes I was a bit shocked when I compiled the list. Definitely a trend we have there.

The reason I still back Smith, although not as fervent as I once was, is that before him we never even had the big games. One thing Smith can have undoubted credit for is turning us into a team that make finals regularly under his tenure. Before Smith the last final we made was the Regal Trophy in 1995, the last time we won one was the same trophy in 1991. Cullen's team you say? Well Smith did better with it than Cullen ever did.

I think that's the key. I'm also a long-term fan and I recall all too clearly when we won the cup in 1974 how I found it difficult to imagine how older Wire supporters had waited twenty years between trophies (previous win had been 1954). Well, I then went through 35 years before we won it again! We had lots of 'cozy' years where we got nowhere, even getting into the playoffs was beyond us. End of season was still interesting because as an RL fan we could watch Hull, then Wigan, then Saints, then Bulls, compete in semis and finals without the pressure/tension of being a supporter of one of the teams contesting those big games. Being close to the top is a completey different fan experience. Wobbly legs, nervy guts, joy or despair at the end of tight games. Last Friday was, indeed, a stupid, self-inflicted capitulation, no doubt about that. With our new cop of injuries I'm not sure we have the players to win the GF this year. However, Wire is still clearly one of the very best sides in the comp, regarded as an exciting team to watch by other fans. TS has built the side into genuine contenders. We need that 5% extra, not the 50% extra we lacked in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. That, and a few cups along the way, is genuine achievement. Will still need that extra 5%, but I much prefer being where we are now to the previous three decades.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:50 am  

After reading the Joe Westerman's comments in the Guardian, he admits that the team thought the game was one when they went 28-14 up. I think
this backs up a lot of what people have been saying on here in that it's not for a lack of talent, but more a case of putting the cue on the rack early.
For the huge game last week it is very dissapointing and it also comes across as the team showing arrogance/complacency- not good signs!

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:58 am  

Gazwire wrote:

After reading the Joe Westerman's comments in the Guardian, he admits that the team thought the game was one when they went 28-14 up. I think
this backs up a lot of what people have been saying on here in that it's not for a lack of talent, but more a case of putting the cue on the rack early.
For the huge game last week it is very dissapointing and it also comes across as the team showing arrogance/complacency- not good signs!

Yes it's a real pity that the players have not learnt from the past instances that I listed where we blew a HT lead.

There is a lack of talent in the 3/4s and prop department.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:06 am  

There is a lack of talent throughout superleague, that is why it is spread thinner than marmite. Wigan beat us last week with a gang of journeymen.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:20 am  

ninearches wrote:

There is a lack of talent throughout superleague, that is why it is spread thinner than marmite. Wigan beat us last week with a gang of journeymen.

Tomkins
Charnley
Gelling
Sarginson
Williams
Smith
Flower
Bateman
Farrell

Hardly a team of journeymen mate

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:34 am  

Wires71 wrote:

One game - Come off it? Look at the facts.

Last 3 league games

Wigan - Lost 2nd half 12-21
Widnes - Lost 2nd half 10-12
Catalans - Lost 2nd half 8-22

More tellingly the recent big games.

CCFinal 2016 - Lost 2nd half 6-12, ahead at HT, lost game
SL SF 2014 - Drew 2nd half, lost game.
SL GF 2013 - Lost 2nd half 0-24, ahead at HT, lost game
SL GF 2012 - Lost 2nd half 4-12, ahead at HT, lost game
SL SF 2011 - Lost 2nd half 12-20, ahead at HT, lost game

The omens are clearly not good if we are not unassailably ahead by half time.

This is more like the discussion i can agree with and be part of. My point was that the Wigan game last week wasn't particularly important, yes it was a bit embarrassing, but in the grand scheme of things it isn't the worst thing we've seen or the worst we've felt like some are suggesting. It wasn't a final or even a semi-final, it was just game 29 of 30 in the season just like Hull KR was just one game in July when the same thing happened.

However, the trend that we're seeing here is a big one!

After building a lead through positive, determined, exciting play we relax too much, lose that determination and change the way we play which leads to us switching off through losing concentration and our whole intensity drops.

Because intensity is built, once you lose it, it's hard [almost impossible] to regain especially late in games.

This is an extremely poor attitude to have as a team and a coaching staff. For it to have happened a number of times through different squads of players yet the same coach means it is a fault of Tony Smith. You'd think, even just this season (never mind the times it's happened in previous seasons) that, after Hull KR away when they had 12 men and we had a lead with two minutes to go and we drew, we would not allow that to happen again this season under any circumstances. But it did!

But that's also what i meant with last week being a blessing in disguise because it might have been the game that really highlighted this problem of Smith's to the board. If it happened in 2011 with Hodgson JMonaghan King Atkins Briers Morley MMonaghan Carvell LAnderson Grix Westwood Cooper Wood and Solomona when we were one of the best teams i've ever seen watching this sport, playing some of the best rugby i've ever seen...and it's still happening with a different line-up of Ratchford Atkins Gidley Sandow Hill Clark Sims Currie Hughes Westerman and Westwood (nowhere near as good a team, granted!) then it can't be the group of players, it has to be an attutide that comes from the coach. Look at what he did when we were 14 points up last week, he took off our two best players Hill and Clark as he thought we'd won the game - but the game isn't won until the final hooter. and then we went and lost our third best player Currie to injury, so that's three of our best players off, our coach thinking the game was won and we lost our intensity and couldn't regain it and we lost.

I think this has to be the final nail for Smith. We've seen that he's made mistakes in the past and we've said he should be given the opportunity to rectify them but he's not rectifying this one is he? He lost sight of the state of the squad after our good 2009-2013 team came to its end. In the Winter of 2012 i think he signed one player, in the Winter of 2013 he didn't sign a single player and in the Winter of 2014 he only signed a few players including Asotasi. That's when we saw Morley Briers Carvell Wood Solomona MKing LAnderson MMonaghan Cooper Hodgson etc all leave the club. How can someone allow the squad to fall that far back? That's poor foresight and poor management.

He got his shock through the realisation of our drop in quality and we started to make good signings again since with Clark Westerman Gidley and Sandow so to a certain extent he rectified that mistake. But he's not rectifying the blasé attitude he puts onto us when we get a lead in a big game. And for that i think it's time for him to go!

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:44 am  

moving on... wrote:

ninearches wrote:

There is a lack of talent throughout superleague, that is why it is spread thinner than marmite. Wigan beat us last week with a gang of journeymen.

Tomkins
Charnley
Gelling
Sarginson
Williams
Smith
Flower
Bateman
Farrell

Hardly a team of journeymen mate

I think i would call them a team of club standard players. None of them set my world alight. I don't know if Tomkins has any magic left in him.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:47 am  

Psychedelic Casual wrote:

He lost sight of the state of the squad after our good 2009-2013 team came to its end. In the Winter of 2012 i think he signed one player, in the Winter of 2013 he didn't sign a single player and in the Winter of 2014 he only signed a few players including Asotasi. That's when we saw Morley Briers Carvell Wood Solomona MKing LAnderson MMonaghan Cooper Hodgson etc all leave the club. How can someone allow the squad to fall that far back? That's poor foresight and poor management.

It looks negligent in retrospect doesn't it.

I think the over reliance on our youth system was a big mistake. We all know Warrington's youth system has a well established track record of poor delivery of top quality players for whatever reasons of management, catchment area etc.

Re: Apologies to the Mods : Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:51 am  

Psychedelic Casual wrote:

last week, he took off our two best players Hill and Clark as he thought we'd won the game - but the game isn't won until the final hooter. and then we went and lost our third best player Currie to injury, so that's three of our best players off, our coach thinking the game was won and we lost our intensity and couldn't regain it and we lost.

Hill needed a break as he played straight up until then. This is a symptom. The cause is that he is our only decent prop forward.

Clarke was sensational. In fact more than that Clarke was the only one who looked like he could break the line. We had one game plan A) Scoot for half back and target behind the ruck. When he went off so did our attacking threat.