: Thu May 28, 2009 12:08 am  

Geordie wrote:

Planges best day in charge was that away day at the Boulevard in Hull. About 40 wire fans turned up and watched Lee Briers pop over drop goal after droap goal to deprive Hull of the ball. I think he scored 7 in that game alone.

That was was a real strange experience in RL terms

I remember that game clearly - I was not there, but listening to it on GMR in my back yard was no less tense, I can't remember a game I have not been to but felt like I had so vividly.

: Thu May 28, 2009 7:37 am  

getdownmonkeyman wrote:

58-4 to Wigan's young team suggests to me Plange was heading into a strong downward spiral. The decision to replace him was the correct one.

Also there is no evidence to support had we been relegated, we would have been promoted, so he isn't wrong at all. He is offering up a theory that relegation would have seen this club be no more. More than likely it would have folded without the Sky cash.

As plausible as any other.

I think you've got your games mixed up, the 58-4 defeat was Plange's first full game in charge, we beat Hull a couple of weeks after that.

We got 3 important wins in a five week period during June and July, over Leeds and important ones over our relegation rivals Wakefield and Salford, that period really was crucial because it meant we were on 10 points, Wakey were on 9 and Salford 8.....if we'd have been on 4 and those on 11 and 10, we'd have had it.

Just after that we copped a 70 point caning at Knowsley Road which sent us into panic mode because we looked dog rubbish, then we lost at home to Cas the next week and Plange got sacked. We were fearing the worst at the time because Wakey and Salford looked to have more fight about them than we did. Both those clubs already had new coaches (Harrison and McNally) and they were getting plaudits scrapping in games hard and losing by a point or a couple of points here and there against good sides. We on the other hand weren't dealing in the valiant efforts in defeat, we were going down easily most weeks but games when we were in the game we were managing to see through and take points. That was the difference and what kept us up in the end.

It was the same story when Cullen took over, apart from that narrow loss in his first game against Widnes, we got the points in the Halifax and Cas games and surrendered without a fight in the other three, which is the same pattern we were getting under Plange. I wonder if Plange had stayed and got the same record in those last six games, if he would be still feted as the man that saved the club from oblivion? Cullen got to be the hero because it suited the story, ex player returns to his home town club and turns the clubs fortunes around. In the end we were 10th when Plange was sacked....we finished the season 10th. We needed one win from six games to survive, we got two.

I also don't buy this doomsday scenario that the club would never have survived relegation. Huddersfield, Castleford (twice) and Salford (twice) went down, kept full time squads, and got back up straight away. Those are all clubs with lower gates and less of an infrastructure than us and they survived fine.

Plange had already won that division with Hunslet and Cullen had done ok with Whitehaven, if we'd been down in 2003 we would have beaten Leigh in the Grand Final and come back up in a blaze of glory ready to move into the new stadium.

Another little aside for the conspiracy theorists. At the end of 2002 it became apparent that Halifax were completely bust and weren't able to run a Super League team in 2003. There were murmurs that the RFL was going to cut their spot. I wonder if a bigger team like us had finished bottom in 2002, whether these murmurs might have spread into something more.

: Thu May 28, 2009 9:04 am  

Whatever Cullen's shortcomings as a coach, he did manage to keep us up that season.

Reading this post reminds me of the excitement and tension of relegation battles, sadly lost now with the Franchaise system. Not so exciting when you're in them like, but I don't think that would be a problem any more with Che Smith in charge.

: Thu May 28, 2009 9:28 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I think you've got your games mixed up, the 58-4 defeat was Plange's first full game in charge, we beat Hull a couple of weeks after that.

We got 3 important wins in a five week period during June and July, over Leeds and important ones over our relegation rivals Wakefield and Salford, that period really was crucial because it meant we were on 10 points, Wakey were on 9 and Salford 8.....if we'd have been on 4 and those on 11 and 10, we'd have had it.

Just after that we copped a 70 point caning at Knowsley Road which sent us into panic mode because we looked dog rubbish, then we lost at home to Cas the next week and Plange got sacked. We were fearing the worst at the time because Wakey and Salford looked to have more fight about them than we did. Both those clubs already had new coaches (Harrison and McNally) and they were getting plaudits scrapping in games hard and losing by a point or a couple of points here and there against good sides. We on the other hand weren't dealing in the valiant efforts in defeat, we were going down easily most weeks but games when we were in the game we were managing to see through and take points. That was the difference and what kept us up in the end.

It was the same story when Cullen took over, apart from that narrow loss in his first game against Widnes, we got the points in the Halifax and Cas games and surrendered without a fight in the other three, which is the same pattern we were getting under Plange. I wonder if Plange had stayed and got the same record in those last six games, if he would be still feted as the man that saved the club from oblivion? Cullen got to be the hero because it suited the story, ex player returns to his home town club and turns the clubs fortunes around. In the end we were 10th when Plange was sacked....we finished the season 10th. We needed one win from six games to survive, we got two.

I also don't buy this doomsday scenario that the club would never have survived relegation. Huddersfield, Castleford (twice) and Salford (twice) went down, kept full time squads, and got back up straight away. Those are all clubs with lower gates and less of an infrastructure than us and they survived fine.

Plange had already won that division with Hunslet and Cullen had done ok with Whitehaven, if we'd been down in 2003 we would have beaten Leigh in the Grand Final and come back up in a blaze of glory ready to move into the new stadium.

Another little aside for the conspiracy theorists. At the end of 2002 it became apparent that Halifax were completely bust and weren't able to run a Super League team in 2003. There were murmurs that the RFL was going to cut their spot. I wonder if a bigger team like us had finished bottom in 2002, whether these murmurs might have spread into something more.

Me neither; the club would have survived but we would be a very different animal now.

I am reading a book written by Ray French written in the late eighties (More Kinds Of Rugby) and it is talking about Huddersfield being in the third division to enable them to build back up the club so it is an amazing turnaround to see them today. Like most clubs, often all you need is the will and deep pockets of one or more individuals in the mould of people like Ken Davy or John Wilkinson at Salford.

: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 am  

5 more years

: Thu May 28, 2009 9:53 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

It was the same story when Cullen took over, apart from that narrow loss in his first game against Widnes, we got the points in the Halifax and Cas games and surrendered without a fight in the other three, which is the same pattern we were getting under Plange.

I might have false memory syndrome here but didn't the capitulations at the end come after we were safe?...my abiding memory of that season was that we were literally dire and so for me it was Cullen who turned it around and not just something that was going to happen whoever the coach was.

IMO Cullen did a great job at warrington and his downfall was his ambition - he knew how to connect with the appos, limas and nat woods of this world and got the best out of them but after the signing of players like monas and king to try and take the club forward he couldn't coach the team anymore

it would have been nicer if he had gone gracefully before people turned on him so the memories weren't tarnished but he stayed because he dearly wanted to take the club to the next level - which is no crime in my eyes

: Thu May 28, 2009 9:57 am  

tino wrote:

I might have false memory syndrome here but didn't the capitulations at the end come after we were safe?...my abiding memory of that season was that we were literally dire and so for me it was Cullen who turned it around and not just something that was going to happen whoever the coach was.

IMO Cullen did a great job at warrington and his downfall was his ambition - he knew how to connect with the appos, limas and nat woods of this world and got the best out of them but after the signing of players like monas and king to try and take the club forward he couldn't coach the team anymore

it would have been nicer if he had gone gracefully before people turned on him so the memories weren't tarnished but he stayed because he dearly wanted to take the club to the next level - which is no crime in my eyes

I wish it had ended better. It was a shame because i thought he was a great bloke, but he had to go.

: Thu May 28, 2009 10:03 am  

Geordie wrote:

Planges best day in charge was that away day at the Boulevard in Hull. About 40 wire fans turned up and watched Lee Briers pop over drop goal after droap goal to deprive Hull of the ball. I think he scored 7 in that game alone.
That was was a real strange experience in RL terms

I think your mind is playing tricks chief. I think he kicked two or three tops in the Hull game. Was it five he kicked at Halifax away that year, we lost late on when Cardiss scored, I'd presume that five he kicked that day is still a SL record.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:11 pm  

If we're looking for a man who saved the club from oblivion, how about Daryl Van de Velde?

He took over in 1997 with us bottom of the league and facing relegation. As soon as he arrived he had to deal with the loss of Iestyn Harris. He replaced him straight away with a teenage Lee Briers who went onto be our main player for the next 12 years.

At this time the club was in severe financial trouble and had to stop fielding a Senior Academy because of cost cutting measures. Relegation at that time would have been a far bigger disaster than relegation in 2002. Daryl saved us and kept us up that season. Then he had to deal with the enforced sale of our best player Scully.

Daryl was a driving force behind us setting up our Scholarship scheme and re-establishing our youth set up. When he did get a bit of money to spend (and not as much as Cullen got later) he got us to mid table, we finished 7th, 6th, 7th in his last three years which is not too dissimilar to 6th, 7th, 6th which was the record in Cullen's last three.

I don't think DVDV was a perfect coach, I reckon he was about the same quality as Cullen, but Cullen is often remembered in a misty eyed way as the man who singlehandedly saved the club and took us onto greater things, when really all he did was repeat Van de Velde's achievements in much more stable circumstances.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:15 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

If we're looking for a man who saved the club from oblivion, how about Daryl Van de Velde?

He took over in 1997 with us bottom of the league and facing relegation. As soon as he arrived he had to deal with the loss of Iestyn Harris. He replaced him straight away with a teenage Lee Briers who went onto be our main player for the next 12 years.

At this time the club was in severe financial trouble and had to stop fielding a Senior Academy because of cost cutting measures. Relegation at that time would have been a far bigger disaster than relegation in 2002. Daryl saved us and kept us up that season. Then he had to deal with the enforced sale of our best player Scully.

Daryl was a driving force behind us setting up our Scholarship scheme and re-establishing our youth set up. When he did get a bit of money to spend (and not as much as Cullen got later) he got us to mid table, we finished 7th, 6th, 7th in his last three years which is not too dissimilar to 6th, 7th, 6th which was the record in Cullen's last three.

I don't think DVDV was a perfect coach, I reckon he was about the same quality as Cullen, but Cullen is often remembered in a misty eyed way as the man who singlehandedly saved the club and took us onto greater things, when really all he did was repeat Van de Velde's achievements in much more stable circumstances.

It was also widely suggested at the time that Van De Velde even put his hand in his own pocket to pay the players when there was a cash flow issue. Can't imagine that happening now.