Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 7:45 am  

easyWire wrote:

He was out of form in 2022 and threw a hissy fit after an honest appraisal from the coach (allegedly). Was never the same after signing a big money contract. I'm sure there's truth in the Fitzpatrick murmurings, but at the time Fitzpatrick was tasked with getting a coach who would eradicate the comfort culture. Maybe he had to trust Powell's judgement as the old way hadn't worked under Price.

In hindsight, the best thing (for the club anyway) would have been to drop him and explain why (handled by the player welfare manager). However, this is a clean slate and hopefully the Wigan environment has forced him to grow up a bit and readied him for the wrath of Burgess (who I'm certain will be happy to drop any player not giving 100% every week).

Time will tell.

hmm I think that it ill have opened his eyes to how a professional sucessful club is ran. his form automatically changed as soon as he turned to for wigan.

I think most fans will be sceptical about his return and he will be asked to "prove" himself which I dont think he has to do, he is a grand final winner and was instrumental in their succesfull season which is ironic given most people on here were talking about him being average and a mid table centre ?

I have maintained for a long time we are toothless in the centre and I do think its a very important position, the best centres in the league throughout super league history have all ended up as grand final winners we have been lacking in this for an awful ling time king and tai look to be a more strike orientated pair with wrench to cover for them .

ratchford is a hard player to asses as he is competent in many positions but excels in none he has probably been a victim of his own versatility and caused many coaches headaches of where to fit him in. theoretically if we did not have ratchford we could have signed an alternative that the coach wanted and fitted into his plans.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 8:45 am  

jonh wrote:

Now the dust has settled just wondered what the thoughts are on Toby King returning?

How will he be received.

Been very vocal about how positive his time at Wigan has been and also had a couple of thinly veiled digs at Fitzpatrick for the way he handled the rifts created by Powell.

I’m sad to see him leave Wigan think we will be worse for not having him, just curious to see the thoughts of the Warrington faithful.

As mentioned there were some off field issues that affected his reputation within the club, moving in to a new environment - especially one like Wigan - It's always easier to 'tow the line'. The issue is the salary he is on which obviously isn't his fault. For the money he should be one of the best strike centres in the competition, he isn't he's solid, dependable and does his job well but he's not going to create something from nothing.

He's a positive person, so doesn't surprise me he's been vocal how much he enjoyed his time at Wigan - he did the same at Warrington for 95% of his career so far and I'd expect that to continue in 2024.

At the end of the day, Powell wanted him gone, probably because of his salary as much as Powell waning to enable change of attitude within the squad. Powell wanted to remodel the squad playing wise, having that kind of salary available by moving King on was probably very tempting for Powell - especially if there were off field issues. He also brought in a better player IMO in Wardle, real shame we couldn't keep hold of him.

Powell is gone, King is back, I'm sure as long he is being seen to be putting in the effort he will be welcomed back.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:37 am  

The_runaround wrote:

I think most fans will be sceptical about his return and he will be asked to "prove" himself which I dont think he has to do, he is a grand final winner and was instrumental in their succesfull season which is ironic given most people on here were talking about him being average and a mid table centre ?

I still just don't see this "wonder centre". He is not even the best centre at Wigan. He is solid, hard to put down, offloads freely and good at catching cross field kicks. He is not particularly evasive, or fast, and I have never seen him make space from nothing and slip a pass to his winger.

No doubt he had a better season with Wigan in 2023 than he did with us in the season previously where I think he managed 1 or 2 tries in the half season that followed his contract extension before he was ejected. I congratulate him on his GF win but that does not make him an exceptional player. Ryan Bailey, (the oft cited example), has a bucket full of GF wins.

But we will see when he comes back, clean slate.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 9:57 am  

Wires71 wrote:

I still just don't see this "wonder centre". He is not even the best centre at Wigan. He is solid, hard to put down, offloads freely and good at catching cross field kicks. He is not particularly evasive, or fast, and I have never seen him make space from nothing and slip a pass to his winger.

No doubt he had a better season with Wigan in 2023 than he did with us in the season previously where I think he managed 1 or 2 tries in the half season that followed his contract extension before he was ejected. I congratulate him on his GF win but that does not make him an exceptional player. Ryan Bailey, (the oft cited example), has a bucket full of GF wins.

But we will see when he comes back, clean slate.

I’m not sure on this. King has been superb this year, not just in those glossy areas but in carries, meters, offloads, tackle busts… he has contributed to the team really well. Still made double figures for both tries and assists.

In truth, he’s done everything that Ratchford and Matautia didn’t in 2023.

Back in the England squad again too, granted without Farnworth available so might not have made it without that, but Wane (who has an inside view to his year being inside the Wigan system) must like what he has seen.

It was difficult to watch our player in a Wigan kit winning the grand final at the weekend. Even worse that we were paying part of his salary. Sad indictment of the management of the club over the past few years.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:24 am  

Barbed Wire wrote:

I’m not sure on this. King has been superb this year, not just in those glossy areas but in carries, meters, offloads, tackle busts… he has contributed to the team really well. Still made double figures for both tries and assists.

In truth, he’s done everything that Ratchford and Matautia didn’t in 2023.

Back in the England squad again too, granted without Farnworth available so might not have made it without that, but Wane (who has an inside view to his year being inside the Wigan system) must like what he has seen.

It was difficult to watch our player in a Wigan kit winning the grand final at the weekend. Even worse that we were paying part of his salary. Sad indictment of the management of the club over the past few years.

Completely agree with this. He has been superb for Wigan.

I’m struggling to understand what people expect from a centre these days.

I think people have this perception that good centres have to make tackle busts every carry like Inglis in his prime, have the pace of Offiah, the offload of Gene Miles and defensive capabilities of Dean Bell.

I genuinely cannot think of many centres in the modern game on either side of the World that have this mystical “strike” ability people seem to crave.

The modern game generally sees the primary creator of tries to the winger as the fullback he generally also provides the strike.

King when used to his strengths is an excellent centre.

Strong carry, great work ethic, good offload and can put his winger away.

This whole create something out of nothing line is almost like people think SL is under 12s rugby.

Defences are generally very well organised. All players rely on space except the very special ones and they tend to be fullbacks.

I’d much rather Wigan retained King than had to recruit Keighran.

Wardle has caught the headlines in the last couple of months but over the course of the year King has been the more effective of the 2 in 2023.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:44 am  

Barbed Wire wrote:

I’m not sure on this. King has been superb this year, not just in those glossy areas but in carries, meters, offloads, tackle busts… he has contributed to the team really well. Still made double figures for both tries and assists.

In truth, he’s done everything that Ratchford and Matautia didn’t in 2023.

Back in the England squad again too, granted without Farnworth available so might not have made it without that, but Wane (who has an inside view to his year being inside the Wigan system) must like what he has seen.

It was difficult to watch our player in a Wigan kit winning the grand final at the weekend. Even worse that we were paying part of his salary. Sad indictment of the management of the club over the past few years.

OK I don't agree with the "superb" adjective. If we are going into stats he still misses a lot of tackles 46/362 and I have never been convinced of his defensive reads or positioning. But that's all fine we can disagree. If I could have the choice I would much prefer Wardle.

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:47 am  

Didn’t his loss of form also coincide with a shift to the left centre with Warrington?

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:48 am  

jonh wrote:

Completely agree with this. He has been superb for Wigan.

I’m struggling to understand what people expect from a centre these days.

I think people have this perception that good centres have to make tackle busts every carry like Inglis in his prime, have the pace of Offiah, the offload of Gene Miles and defensive capabilities of Dean Bell.

I genuinely cannot think of many centres in the modern game on either side of the World that have this mystical “strike” ability people seem to crave.

The modern game generally sees the primary creator of tries to the winger as the fullback he generally also provides the strike.

King when used to his strengths is an excellent centre.

Strong carry, great work ethic, good offload and can put his winger away.

This whole create something out of nothing line is almost like people think SL is under 12s rugby.

Defences are generally very well organised. All players rely on space except the very special ones and they tend to be fullbacks.

I’d much rather Wigan retained King than had to recruit Keighran.

Wardle has caught the headlines in the last couple of months but over the course of the year King has been the more effective of the 2 in 2023.

Fair enough. Don't forget I am probably jaundiced after watching him sulking for half a season before Powell ejected him. Anyway, hypothetical question, if faced with a choice of losing King or Wardle, which one would you keep?

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:51 am  

Barbed Wire wrote:

I’m not sure on this. King has been superb this year, not just in those glossy areas but in carries, meters, offloads, tackle busts… he has contributed to the team really well. Still made double figures for both tries and assists.

In truth, he’s done everything that Ratchford and Matautia didn’t in 2023.

Back in the England squad again too, granted without Farnworth available so might not have made it without that, but Wane (who has an inside view to his year being inside the Wigan system) must like what he has seen.

It was difficult to watch our player in a Wigan kit winning the grand final at the weekend. Even worse that we were paying part of his salary. Sad indictment of the management of the club over the past few years.

crazy isn't it that professional people within successful clubs and structures rate him yet warrington fans dont.....I know who I will go with wages are irrelevant people go on about hi wages as if that is a guarantee that he will perform to a certain standard, we dont know what he is paid. but only 50k of it counts to the cap so I do not see why they are concerned with what he is paid !!!

Re: Centres : Tue Oct 17, 2023 10:56 am  

jonh wrote: Didn’t his loss of form also coincide with a shift to the left centre with Warrington? No. He was in decent form, signed the massive contract under Price in May 2021 then the form fell off a cliff. Then Powell came in and they had a fall out. Daryl Powell wrote: I want a certain type of centre and to be fair to Toby, there’s no doubt that he’s got a lot of potential but after he got his contract here last year he kind of stalled https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/warringt ... tre-58007/

jonh wrote: Didn’t his loss of form also coincide with a shift to the left centre with Warrington? No. He was in decent form, signed the massive contract under Price in May 2021 then the form fell off a cliff. Then Powell came in and they had a fall out. Daryl Powell wrote: I want a certain type of centre and to be fair to Toby, there’s no doubt that he’s got a lot of potential but after he got his contract here last year he kind of stalled https://www.seriousaboutrl.com/warringt ... tre-58007/