: Sat May 16, 2009 12:52 am  

The Angry Pirate wrote:

In reality it is a divided country, where different groups of people have their own communities, making absolutely no attempt to integrate with one another.
.

Much like the expat communities in Spain, Australia, Malta, etc?

: Sat May 16, 2009 1:48 am  

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

Much like the expat communities in Spain, Australia, Malta, etc?

I'll have a COOLLLD Glass....

: Sat May 16, 2009 10:17 am  

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

Much like the expat communities in Spain, Australia, Malta, etc?

There are different levels of cultural difference which explain whether integration works or doesn't.

The easiest level of integration coming over here is from Aussies, Kiwis, Americans, white South Africans. They speak the same language, essentially have the same social culture, enjoy sports, drinking etc. You could assimilate a lot of them in the UK and it wouldn't rock the boat. People will have rivalry and banter but its no different from having Scots, Welsh, Irish living here.

Next level is Europeans, Western Europeans integrate a bit better than Eastern Europeans. They are generally comfortable speaking English, come from democratic countries like ours and have respect for law, in the case of the Western Europeans they haven't come here fleeing poverty, in many cases they've left a country with a better social infrastructure to come here, they've come for the purpose of work etc. Eastern Europeans are often hard working however in some cases they have come from rough environments and bring problems with them, when I was at college in Manchester we had a lot of the refugees from the Nato war in Serbia, they brought tribal rivalries with them and there was some trouble on campus between Serbs, Bosnians, Albanians etc. Same has happened in some parts of the south coast where there are Balkan settlers, they are gypsies and bring petty crime and theft with them. Eastern Europeans tend to get exploited over here especially young women who get roped into the sex industry.

Africans from the English speaking countries like Zimbabwe, Malawi generally fit in ok, they are hard working and naturally humble so keep a low profile. Same goes for Ghana and Nigeria although Nigeria has a lot of organised crime so some of that comes over here.

Chinese and East Asian countries have immigrants in every country and they do tend to segregate themselves and create Chinatown areas, so it does colonise parts of the host country, on the other hand they have a culture of discipline and respect so they don't cause disruption. I would prefer to live in a street of Chinese and Japanese immigrants than I would a street of British chavs, because they know how to behave.

The problem countries for immigration are the violent African countries, parts of the Middle East and the asian subcontinent. They come from a culture which is essentially very different to ours, they don't like a lot of the things about the UK, alcohol, noisy social partying, eating pig meat, going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. A lot of these groups will come here and vocally disapprove of British lifestyle and politics, which is why it causes ethnic tension. They've come here for economic reasons, because they perceive that they will be materially better off in the UK than back at home, but they want to claim they are badly done to in the UK because they are moving into a different culture.

The biggest problems I think, however, are not caused by the immigrants themselves, but by their children, the second generation that come through born and bred in the UK, look different ethnically and experience a bit of racial discrimination by their peers at school, and so hang round together in gangs causing racial trouble.

I live in a heavily asian populated area, I never have any bother from the older generation who grew up in Pakistan /India etc, but if your out on your own and you walk past a group of ethnically Pakistani looking youths who were probably born in Leeds/Bradford, they'll shout abuse or throw something at you, and if you turn around then they start getting their mates "what the f you looking at? come on Anwar lets f in smash him" etc. Exactly the same thing happens in Sydney with the Lebanese. Domestic born youths with middle eastern/asian parents with a chip on their shoulders who club together wanting to start fights where they outnumber the native people.

: Sat May 16, 2009 11:17 am  

Wire_Yed_79 wrote:

I used to be a tory because i sit slightly right of centre but there is just no common sense coming from the big parties anymore.
If there was a common sense party i would vote for them but at the moment the only party talking sense is UKIP.

The last UKIP manifesto I saw stated that they would be in favour of taking voting away from the public by allowing businesses in an area a block vote in local elections. Is that still their stance ?

: Sat May 16, 2009 8:51 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

<snip>

As usual, you articulate your quite valid points very well.
I don't know where you live (though, would I be right in suggesting you do/have lived in Leeds at some point?), so I will take your word on the gangs of youths kicking off. I doubt that this is a trait that is Pakistani/Indian specific, however, merely a generationally trait, in that they are young people with little to do and, as you say, perhaps a chip on their shoulder. In their defense, they probably don't feel accepted in their social environment in the UK, whilst also feeling out of place in their parents' homeland. If these kids were granted access to inclusive clubs/activities, perhaps attitudes would be different. Where I live, there are gangs of white kids who stand on street corners, often insinuating, threatening, looking for violence, or, in the kids' terminology, 'a buzz'. (I'll hold my hands up, as an early teen, I participated in a few activities I am not proud of.) Kids being bored and causing a nuisance isn't a race thing, but I take your point on how seeing Asian kids in groups would give the impression of an insular, ghetto-type environment.
From your assessment of immigrants, it comes across somewhat that if they are white, speak English and like to participate in binge drinking, they are welcome; if they are not white, they must be humble and not dissaprove of anything or they won't be welcome.
To bring it back to politics, two Political leaflets came through our door over the weekend; one from UKIP and one from the BNP.
The BNP leaflet mentioned Muslims numerus:
"The BNP promises to bring our soldiers home and not allow them to be abused in the street by muslims" and, referring to the EU, stating that Britain could be "open to 80million Muslim Turks to swamp Britain"
I get the impression from that leaflet that non-whites and Muslims are the problem.
The UKIP had a picture of Winston Churchill with the tagline "Say No To Europe", to be honest, I'm up for saying Yes to Europe.

Just on the immigration and working issue, some of the people who know me on here know that my sister is actually a second Generation Eastern European, IMO, she fits in very well at school and with her peers; she is always being invited to parties and is generally very popular. I know this is different, as she is a product of mixed parents and has a very Northern idiolect and typical Northern working class values, though combined with her father's strict Muslim discipline. She is very respectful and polite, though has a very blossoming sense of humour. I don't see her in a few years causin problems on street corners because of a chip on her shoulder brought about from being a bit darker than the other kids and a different religion.
Due to this, I would also guess that I have a bigger quantity and percentage of Muslim and Eastern European acquaintances withing my social circles than most on here, and I can honestly say that very few of these I have taken a dislike to. They have come over here to work and, in theory, enjoy a better life than they would working in a sweatshop 'back home'. As immigrants, they can claim no benefits and are eligible for no financial assistance or medical preference - a common misconception of immigrants, I find.
I, personally, think that there is more to life than working in a factory in the locallity and living on the same council estate, going to the same local pub most nights, etc, and would like to think that I could work in a variety of countries, experiancing different cultures and perspectives on life. If I was to work in an English pub in Kavos, is that any better or worse than a young lad from Turkey working in a Kebab shop in London?

: Sat May 16, 2009 10:32 pm  

The UKIP had a picture of Winston Churchill with the tagline "Say No To Europe", to be honest, I'm up for saying Yes to Europe. The misconception of UKIP is that people think that they 'hate' big bad Europe 1st They don't [hate Europe], they want trade with Europe BUT they don't want to be governed by Europe. We contribute 6.1 BILLION to Europe that would be better spent on our own Islands. Why would you want someone from another country who knows nothing of your culture or needs dictating policies on GB from an unelected position in Europe ? Where is the sense in that. Plus even the staunchest Socialist can't agree with it. It looks all good and fair and Equal but it isn't, France and Germany get to dictate their own terms yet fail to offer these same terms to other member states. to quote the UKIP website "We want friendship and free trade with our European neighbours – not political union." Voting Systems The single member constituency system would be retained, which provides strong representation, and introduce the Alternative Vote for all national and local elections allowing voters to list their candidate preferences. We will oppose measures that allow electoral fraud, and tighten up postal voting criteria. the UKIP constitution http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-polici ... olicy-2009

The UKIP had a picture of Winston Churchill with the tagline "Say No To Europe", to be honest, I'm up for saying Yes to Europe. The misconception of UKIP is that people think that they 'hate' big bad Europe 1st They don't [hate Europe], they want trade with Europe BUT they don't want to be governed by Europe. We contribute 6.1 BILLION to Europe that would be better spent on our own Islands. Why would you want someone from another country who knows nothing of your culture or needs dictating policies on GB from an unelected position in Europe ? Where is the sense in that. Plus even the staunchest Socialist can't agree with it. It looks all good and fair and Equal but it isn't, France and Germany get to dictate their own terms yet fail to offer these same terms to other member states. to quote the UKIP website "We want friendship and free trade with our European neighbours – not political union." Voting Systems The single member constituency system would be retained, which provides strong representation, and introduce the Alternative Vote for all national and local elections allowing voters to list their candidate preferences. We will oppose measures that allow electoral fraud, and tighten up postal voting criteria. the UKIP constitution http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-polici ... olicy-2009

: Sat May 16, 2009 11:51 pm  

Wire_Yed_79 wrote:

The misconception of UKIP is that people think that they 'hate' big bad Europe

I didn't say the hate Europe, I merely described the leaflet that was posted through our front door. Considering they want to be serious opposition for Labour and Conservatives, I couldn't understand the Churchill photo, arguably their would-be opposition's greatest, or most popular, leader.

: Sun May 17, 2009 12:30 am  

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

I didn't say the hate Europe, I merely described the leaflet that was posted through our front door. Considering they want to be serious opposition for Labour and Conservatives, I couldn't understand the Churchill photo, arguably their would-be opposition's greatest, or most popular, leader.

Churchill quotes

"We are with Europe but not of it. We are linked but not comprised. We are associated but not absorbed."

"If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea."

That's probably the reason why UKIP have Churchill on their leaflets.
He shared their beliefs.

: Sun May 17, 2009 12:47 am  

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

As usual, you articulate your quite valid points very well.
I don't know where you live (though, would I be right in suggesting you do/have lived in Leeds at some point?), so I will take your word on the gangs of youths kicking off. I doubt that this is a trait that is Pakistani/Indian specific, however, merely a generationally trait, in that they are young people with little to do and, as you say, perhaps a chip on their shoulder. In their defense, they probably don't feel accepted in their social environment in the UK, whilst also feeling out of place in their parents' homeland. If these kids were granted access to inclusive clubs/activities, perhaps attitudes would be different. Where I live, there are gangs of white kids who stand on street corners, often insinuating, threatening, looking for violence, or, in the kids' terminology, 'a buzz'. (I'll hold my hands up, as an early teen, I participated in a few activities I am not proud of.) Kids being bored and causing a nuisance isn't a race thing, but I take your point on how seeing Asian kids in groups would give the impression of an insular, ghetto-type environment.

Tribalism is natural and the race element just gives a reason to divide lines. When Ross Kemp did his gangs programme in Liverpool there were the fights between the Crocky and Knogsy crews, they are all white scousers, they've just found a line for identifying who's their crew and who's their enemy. So yes you're right it's going to go on whether there's a race issue or not.

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

From your assessment of immigrants, it comes across somewhat that if they are white, speak English and like to participate in binge drinking, they are welcome; if they are not white, they must be humble and not dissaprove of anything or they won't be welcome.

Not really, I hate binge drinking culture. What I'm saying is about whether they are going to fit in or not and whether it's going to cause tension. The more alien someones home culture is to the country them emigrate to, the less well they are going to fit in and the more tension there is going to be between them and the locals. It doesn't just happen here it can be applied to anywhere, look at the problems caused in Africa when their home culture of self sufficiency and farming for themselves and their small community suddenly got invaded by European immigrants bringing a culture of making money, farming for surplus and selling overseas, the two cultures weren't compatible so it caused conflict, the winners got to exploit and dominate the losers.

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

The UKIP had a picture of Winston Churchill with the tagline "Say No To Europe", to be honest, I'm up for saying Yes to Europe.

I'm not keen, I don't see why we can't just have reciprocal trade agreements and leave out all of the moves to political and economic integration. The wider you throw the net of democracy the more you take power away from people. Already with the UK we have a Scottish Prime Minister and a Scottish Chancellor running a London dominated government making decisions which are essentially for the good of London rather than Warrington. As more power and legislation is delegated to Europe then local areas like Warrington matter even less to those making decisions. I prefer devolving power rather than centralising it, I'd rather the UK went in the other direction, stopped putting UK law making in the hands of European government and instead started putting more in the hands of local authorities.

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

They have come over here to work and, in theory, enjoy a better life than they would working in a sweatshop 'back home'. As immigrants, they can claim no benefits and are eligible for no financial assistance or medical preference - a common misconception of immigrants, I find.

I agree with you this is a common preference however immigrants coming in working mean that they are taking jobs away from locals. Most RL fans get annoyed by the amount of Aussies and Kolpak players who come playing in Super League but all of these guys are paying taxes and working hard, they have come here to enjoy a better career than they probably would playing reserve grade back home. The reason we get annoyed is because them being over here means that local talent is forgotten about.

'Hitman' Norvern Soul wrote:

I, personally, think that there is more to life than working in a factory in the locallity and living on the same council estate, going to the same local pub most nights, etc, and would like to think that I could work in a variety of countries, experiancing different cultures and perspectives on life.

There is but most people who work in factories on the same council estate don't do it because it's their lifetime dream but because of a lack of opportunity to do anything else. And when theres no jobs available for them in the factory and there are immigrants doing their jobs, then they are going to get annoyed with immigrants. It's the people at the bottom end of the British social hierachy that experience the biggest negative effects from immigrants coming in, and its people higher up the scale who are insulated from the negative effects who patronise them by calling them racists and telling them they should be tolerant etc.

There's another moral problem with immigration and its the transfer of skills from poorer parts of the world to richer parts of the world because of financial opportunities. I wouldn't allow in any skilled professionals, nurses, doctors, engineers, accountants etc, from Third World countries. It's those skilled professionals who hold the key to making poorer countries richer, but we use our economic advantage to raid them to solve short term holes in our economy, and keep their countries down.

: Sun May 17, 2009 10:08 am  

I'm really enjoying the debate on this thread.