: Thu May 14, 2009 9:18 am  

Wires71 wrote:

I think there are 3 seperate discussions:-

1. Race
2. Points based immigration
3. Asylum.

But I'm not sure this forum is the best place to discuss the delicate issues.

Three separate discussions - agreed. It's a shame that the discussions can't be had on here, but you're probably right.

: Thu May 14, 2009 11:33 am  

The All New Chester Wire wrote:

A new, tough points-based immigration syatem has just been introduced. And it has been tightened since introduction.

Race and immigration should be separated. Race should not be taboo but what are you going to discuss? Immigration is a different matter.

When people talk about issues about race, what they really mean is issues about culture.

If Ellery Hanley and Martin Offiah moved into my street I wouldn't be complaining that there were black guys on my street I'd be well chuffed.

If an educated black businessman from Johannesburg moved in next door I'd be fine with that, I'd have a lot of stuff to talk to him about.

If a gang of Somalis moved in and were hanging around talking Somali, bringing groups of their friends around, I wouldn't be comfortable. I'd have prejudices that they were going to start robbing things and causing crime. Those aren't racial prejudices based on them being black, they're my perceptions on criminal Somali culture. Those blokes might be fine but I wouldn't be comfortable with them living on my doorstep and thats how most people feel when they are complaining about immigration.

Most people who get labelled racist aren't race-haters at all, they are just more comfortable in the company of people of their own culture and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just natural. If I moved over to Pakistan and started hosting all night booze parties with scantily clad women staggering out of my house at 3am in the morning then I expect I would get on the locals nerves, I wouldn't call them racist if they complained about it. So I wouldn't call people here racist if they get annoyed when immigrants move into their area and take over, substantially changing the culture of the area.

: Thu May 14, 2009 11:39 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

When people talk about issues about race, what they really mean is issues about culture.

If Ellery Hanley and Martin Offiah moved into my street I wouldn't be complaining that there were black guys on my street I'd be well chuffed.

If an educated black businessman from Johannesburg moved in next door I'd be fine with that, I'd have a lot of stuff to talk to him about.

If a gang of Somalis moved in and were hanging around talking Somali, bringing groups of their friends around, I wouldn't be comfortable. I'd have prejudices that they were going to start robbing things and causing crime. Those aren't racial prejudices based on them being black, they're my perceptions on criminal Somali culture. Those blokes might be fine but I wouldn't be comfortable with them living on my doorstep and thats how most people feel when they are complaining about immigration.

Most people who get labelled racist aren't race-haters at all, they are just more comfortable in the company of people of their own culture and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just natural. If I moved over to Pakistan and started hosting all night booze parties with scantily clad women staggering out of my house at 3am in the morning then I expect I would get on the locals nerves, I wouldn't call them racist if they complained about it. So I wouldn't call people here racist if they get annoyed when immigrants move into their area and take over, substantially changing the culture of the area.

Good post.

Isn't this what New Labour/Shami Chakrabarti say is a wonderful example of multi-cultural Britain though?

: Thu May 14, 2009 12:02 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Good post.

Isn't this what New Labour/Shami Chakrabarti say is a wonderful example of multi-cultural Britain though?

Wires71 wrote:

But I'm not sure this forum is the best place to discuss the delicate issues.

: Thu May 14, 2009 12:54 pm  

This is an interesting thread.

Shami Chakrabati at least sticks up for that old British tradition of liberty and personal freedom that Labour (and the Tories as they started alot of these things and have no clear to overturn any of them if they come to power) have sought to force on us over the last few years.

Sally C's comment are excellent and I totally agree and tally with the majority of people in this country I think. We're on the whole a fair and decent people.

The truth on immigration is that if you truly want to have some control over border control and on immigration you would have to withdraw from the EU. (I'm no UKIP fan btw - in fact they cause more damage to the more sensible opinions in this area and provide the Europhobes with a convenient stereotype to smother any alternative views.)

Also immigration is a positive thing - the press seem to spin it as a negative but really we should be proud that people want to come and settle in our country - for economic reasons and freedom. What's harmed it is the sheer numbers coming in and the fact that there was no preparation or thought put into it. The fact that there has been a large wave of immigration over the last 5 to 10 years and on the whole its been made to work is testament to the British people I think.

: Thu May 14, 2009 6:25 pm  

This time last year there was a wave of zenophobic attacks in South Africa. They were basically black South African Zulus or Xhosas taking violent action against immigrants from Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Uganda etc. It got pretty ugly, they were burning businesses, beating people up including women and children, basically the point of the violence was to send a message to potential immigrants hearing about it on the news: come to SA and you get big trouble. I was staying in Soweto when it kicked off fairly close in Alexandria. The TVs were full of the official line from the government preaching tolerance, reminding people that during the struggle against apartheid the neighbouring countries had harboured all the ANC exiles, so everyone should respect immigrants etc. I was talking to some blokes in one of the sheebeen pubs, they said to me that people who preach tolerance are always the ones who don't have the immigrants living on their doorstep. If Thabo Mbeki and his government elite had the organised crime gangs from Mozambique living next door they would soon take a different view, same if they were having to live in the townships where there were not enough jobs or social resources to deal with the population density anyway, and South Africans living in poverty were now having to share with thousands of foreigners who'd come across the border and set up shacks.

On a lesser scale its the same situation here. When debates are had about immigration, its often people who live in middle class suburbs with few immigrants, labelling as racist people who live in poorer areas who actually live with the immigrants. It's all Not In My Back Yard, they wouldn't be keen if loads of immigrants moved into their area and the values of their properties started going down.

I take the view that we should be focusing on our domestic economy and sorting out the problems within. There are a lot of British homeless who need housing, get them all housed and fed before we house asylum seekers. There are a lot of British unemployed and low skilled, get them trained in trades and skills and stop relying on imported labour to fill shortages when we should be filling them with our own. Start training more nurses so African nurses stay in Africa where they are needed instead of us ravaging their health systems and making the token gesture of sending a few do gooder volunteer doctors back in return. Social responsibility on a worldwide scale is a noble idea but you have to be able to take care of yourselves before you start trying to solve the problems of the world. I'd be putting a halt on immigration and asylum till we have at least tackled poverty in the UK.

: Thu May 14, 2009 7:20 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

If a gang of Somalis moved in and were hanging around talking Somali, bringing groups of their friends around, I wouldn't be comfortable. I'd have prejudices that they were going to start robbing things and causing crime.

You'd be wanting thje Somali war-loads back if the "Pied Piper of Forshaw Street" took up residence next door.

: Thu May 14, 2009 9:00 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

This time last year there was a wave of zenophobic attacks in South Africa. They were basically black South African Zulus or Xhosas taking violent action against immigrants from Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Uganda etc. It got pretty ugly, they were burning businesses, beating people up including women and children, basically the point of the violence was to send a message to potential immigrants hearing about it on the news: come to SA and you get big trouble. I was staying in Soweto when it kicked off fairly close in Alexandria. The TVs were full of the official line from the government preaching tolerance, reminding people that during the struggle against apartheid the neighbouring countries had harboured all the ANC exiles, so everyone should respect immigrants etc. I was talking to some blokes in one of the sheebeen pubs, they said to me that people who preach tolerance are always the ones who don't have the immigrants living on their doorstep. If Thabo Mbeki and his government elite had the organised crime gangs from Mozambique living next door they would soon take a different view, same if they were having to live in the townships where there were not enough jobs or social resources to deal with the population density anyway, and South Africans living in poverty were now having to share with thousands of foreigners who'd come across the border and set up shacks.

On a lesser scale its the same situation here. When debates are had about immigration, its often people who live in middle class suburbs with few immigrants, labelling as racist people who live in poorer areas who actually live with the immigrants. It's all Not In My Back Yard, they wouldn't be keen if loads of immigrants moved into their area and the values of their properties started going down.

I take the view that we should be focusing on our domestic economy and sorting out the problems within. There are a lot of British homeless who need housing, get them all housed and fed before we house asylum seekers. There are a lot of British unemployed and low skilled, get them trained in trades and skills and stop relying on imported labour to fill shortages when we should be filling them with our own. Start training more nurses so African nurses stay in Africa where they are needed instead of us ravaging their health systems and making the token gesture of sending a few do gooder volunteer doctors back in return. Social responsibility on a worldwide scale is a noble idea but you have to be able to take care of yourselves before you start trying to solve the problems of the world. I'd be putting a halt on immigration and asylum till we have at least tackled poverty in the UK.

Doesn't this rather contradict your earlier comments on the need for imported labour, be it manual or professional?

How are they housed without the required labour skills to provide the housing? How does the social infrastrucure care for, and nuture them without immigrants?

People with poor social skills, are people with poor social skills, regardless of their passport.

: Fri May 15, 2009 8:06 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

On a lesser scale its the same situation here. When debates are had about immigration, its often people who live in middle class suburbs with few immigrants, labelling as racist people who live in poorer areas who actually live with the immigrants. It's all Not In My Back Yard, they wouldn't be keen if loads of immigrants moved into their area and the values of their properties started going down.

Spot on.....The sad fact is that a multi-cultural society can never work, certainly not in the fantasy way that the middle class liberals dream of.

Take a trip to Bradford, Blackburn, Burnley, Oldham, etc, and witness the REAL state of multi-cultural Britain....In reality it is a divided country, where different groups of people have their own communities, making absolutely no attempt to integrate with one another.

I do not have, and don't believe there is a solution....as earlier mentioned, the horse bolted a long time ago, and sadly we now have to make the best of a bad job......I just feel sorry for the genuine immigrants, who have made the effort to integrate and are now being tarnished with the actions of others.

: Fri May 15, 2009 8:53 pm  

I am angry.
A 'middle class' voter who is sickened to the core by a corrupt system.

I always suspected that many MP's had their snouts in the trough - the way they voted for their own pay rises and gave themselves obscene pension hikes.

The recent events have confirmed my worst fears.

MP's have the audacity to say they've done nothing wrong and that everything is within the rules. Utter rubbish.

And when - one by one - they are found out, they grandly say 'we'll pay back £xxxx. Very noble of them.
It's fraud - plain and simple.

In my profession, if I submitted false expense claims on that scale I'd be dismissed.
And these MP's - our honourable members - have the gall to say 'it's the system to blame.

It makes me sick.

I will not vote for further corruption.

If this sort of thing happened in a 3rd world country, we'd look down our noses from the moral high ground and say 'typical'.

I can think of some 3rd world countries who have every right to say 'typical' about Britain.

The British political system stinks to the core - Commons and Lords - God help us. In fact even God would struggle.