Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 8:14 am  

I read an article and wondered if we can learn anything from Argentina Rugby Union? They have no professional clubs but managed to beat sides with professional leagues and reached the semi final of the union World Cup. They do have amateur clubs but in the past struggled with the gap between amateur rugby and the international side. This is a similar situation to RL in London and France, granted France have Catalan but one club cannot produce a decent international side on their own. Personally I don't think putting Toulouse into League 1 is going to make much difference. Entering a French U25 international side based in Toulouse into League 1 may be a better option for bringing players through and improving the national side. They could then move on to Catalans, another Super League club or Elite1 depending on how good they are and when they are ready. http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34611387

I read an article and wondered if we can learn anything from Argentina Rugby Union? They have no professional clubs but managed to beat sides with professional leagues and reached the semi final of the union World Cup. They do have amateur clubs but in the past struggled with the gap between amateur rugby and the international side. This is a similar situation to RL in London and France, granted France have Catalan but one club cannot produce a decent international side on their own. Personally I don't think putting Toulouse into League 1 is going to make much difference. Entering a French U25 international side based in Toulouse into League 1 may be a better option for bringing players through and improving the national side. They could then move on to Catalans, another Super League club or Elite1 depending on how good they are and when they are ready. http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/34611387

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:01 am  

Eat more beef! Best steak ever in Buenos Aires

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:09 am  

The single biggest thing we can take from that article is that they play regular international rugby.

"Before you would play the All Blacks every six or seven years," says the team's defence coach Pablo Bouza. "Now we have played 10 matches against them in four years. And for the players, and for us as coaches, we are always learning when we play them."

We play a single game against a French team with 12 regulars missing, win with a cricket score then write the French off. We need a regular set international calendar and have to accept for 5 to 10 years there will be big scores.

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:32 am  

It's been said before - in RL, we need a generation where it is set in stone that there will be a RL World Cup held every 2 years - alternating between the hemispheres. The rest of the international calendar (qualification for RLWC, 4 Nations etc) could then neatly fit around that. Hard work for the Administrators - but worth it!

If England need a one-off international (e.g. before matches against Australia or NZ as part of tours) it could be against, not France, but "Europe" or "Rest of Europe" thus not just French but the best of Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc qualified players plus give an incentive to such as Russia & Serbia based players.

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:49 am  

Mr Churchill wrote:

It's been said before - in RL, we need a generation where it is set in stone that there will be a RL World Cup held every 2 years - alternating between the hemispheres. The rest of the international calendar (qualification for RLWC, 4 Nations etc) could then neatly fit around that. Hard work for the Administrators - but worth it!

If England need a one-off international (e.g. before matches against Australia or NZ as part of tours) it could be against, not France, but "Europe" or "Rest of Europe" thus not just French but the best of Wales, Scotland, Ireland etc qualified players plus give an incentive to such as Russia & Serbia based players.

Every 2 years for a World Cup would be ridiculous and heavily devalue the competition.
We do need a properly set out international programme and put some investment into the marketing of such events.
Properly planned at decent venues and help given to the "lesser" nations.

At the moment, we have 3 nations Aussie, NZ ad England who are head and shoulders above the rest.

More has to be done to help France improve and sustained effort given to the other nations, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and the south seas countries.

The 4N concept, with the strongest 4th Nation included as a good thing but, as with most things in RL, we don't persist long enough with the idea.

This would have given more exposure to some of the developing nations.

RL needs to stop searching for quick fixes and make proper plans for the future development of the game.

Instead of constant chopping and changing, we should work harder at making what we have work better and advance the game as a whole

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:31 am  

The problem in League is that there are fewer "tier one" nations than in Union. They have arguably eight (Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina, Wales, France, Ireland, England) and then a gap to another tier with the likes of Scotland, Japan, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. There's then a narrow gap from those tier two nations to the likes of Georgia, Canada, Romania etc.

So while tier one versus tier three games can end up as blowouts, there is stiff competition between the bottom of tier one and the best of tier two, and the bottom of tier two and the best of tier three. It creates uncertainty of results, and therefore public interest.

In League, there are three tier one nations and then an absolute chasm to the tier two of the Pacific Islands, Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France. Any game between a tier one side and a tier two one is pretty much foregone conclusion, without the tier two side having some significant advantages in their favour such as home ground, climactic conditions, dodgy local ref etc. So even if you want to put on a four nations tournament, there's going to be one whipping boy. The tier two nations don't learn anything from playing the tier one sides, other than getting a reminder of how far behind they are.

Argentina's union side has achieved success by basically abandoning its domestic competition, and getting its best players out playing in Europe either in the Heineken Cup or the French Top 14. They have improved their individuals. but not necessarily the structures to produce that next batch of individuals.

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:15 pm  

As AG says the Argentinians have given up on their own competition and got their players playing in others. A bit like New Zealand in RL.

But as mentioned they also regularly play top nations.
I make it that in the last 10 years (2006-2015)
Argentina have played the top Union nations (Eng, Wales, Ire, Fra, Aus, NZ & SA) 54 times not including World Cup Games.

Even if you include RL World Cup games, France have only played 36 games in total. And only 14 v top RL nations.

Now that's not the only reason, the game itself is easier to be competitive in than League for instance, which is why I favour tweaking RL's rules to make it easier for "lesser" teams to be competitive. But it must help to regularly play the top nations.

I understand they have more top nations which helps. And there are obviously issues between Catalans and the national side which definitely need sorting ASAP. But we desperately need to get lesser nations playing more often, to a set schedule and against the top nations.
If we do that you'll start to get some pride in their nations team and players will want to turn out for them instead of prioritising their club.

Union obviously had a strategy for improving the likes of Argentina over time. We just seem to hope that a nation gets better.
Also, Argentina took plenty of hammerings in these games but the sport stuck with them and helped them develop rather than just write them off.

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:21 pm  

South Coast RL wrote:

The single biggest thing we can take from that article is that they play regular international rugby.

"Before you would play the All Blacks every six or seven years," says the team's defence coach Pablo Bouza. "Now we have played 10 matches against them in four years. And for the players, and for us as coaches, we are always learning when we play them."

We play a single game against a French team with 12 regulars missing, win with a cricket score then write the French off. We need a regular set international calendar and have to accept for 5 to 10 years there will be big scores.

THIS

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:35 pm  

We need to focus on the club game it is what differentiates us - much better to have more games between the top side in the NRL & SL than meaningless internationals against the likes of France, Wales, Scotland etc. How are the likes of South Pacific countries supposed to afford to bring sides to the UK when attendances for games against England would be pitiful. Argentina are OK because when they play the likes of England the crowd is still huge.

Re: Can we learn from Argentina RU : Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:04 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

We need to focus on the club game it is what differentiates us - much better to have more games between the top side in the NRL & SL than meaningless internationals against the likes of France, Wales, Scotland etc. How are the likes of South Pacific countries supposed to afford to bring sides to the UK when attendances for games against England would be pitiful. Argentina are OK because when they play the likes of England the crowd is still huge.

Love the short-term, negative attitude you have there. Do you work for the NRL?