Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:50 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

Correct. The bloke screwed up massively and is absolutely distraught about it. He will get, and will no doubt accept, a harsh but fair punishment. For some on here, though, no punishment is enough. The rabid attacks show absolutely no human compassion - something they might want to reflect on the next time they make a really big mistake. Most other peoples big mistakes aren't played out over and again in the national media. The guy must be going through an unbelievably hard time. Demand justice for the offence, fine, but have a bit of compassion too, you never know, you might make a big mistake one day.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:58 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

They have and I posted a link a few pages back. They wondered what Wane may have said before the GF given the video of the other team talk.

If this goes to Court (and I guess we all would hope not?) then the ramifications will be enormous and the coaching staff's role will no doubt be cross-examined under oath. For these reasons it would seem that the RFL and Wigan's owner(s) will need to act very, very strongly (if it is correct that the police / CPS may not follow it through if there is sufficient punishment).

[Durham Giant]

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:09 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

I was not coached at ten to knock people out. When I was ten, coaches (this in union by the way) used phrases like 'knock his block off' when talking about, say, the biggest opposition player who was trampling on people. It's old fashioned and not how you'd coach nowadays, but it wasn't taken literally. Taken literally, 'knock his block off' is worse than 'knock someone out', but even a ten year old knew that it didn't mean to literally knock his head off his shoulders. That's what I meant when I said I'd heard 'worse' in junior rugby. The point is to put Wane's comments into context.

On the other point If you are correct about Flower, then he shouldn't play again, but I still think you're wrong.

You should read the Guardian article where Tony Smith talks about platers being influenced by watching MMA and raising coaching issues re Shaun Wane.

Potentially this is worse than maybe either of us think

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:20 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan?

Think Pettybourne broke his jaw when we played Catalan didn't he. Which by the way, was one of the most ill-discipline team performances I've seen in Super League and certainly one of the dirtiest.... by the Catalan team.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:26 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

It is surprising that no media outlet in this country has linked the team talk to the punch. Very surprising.

It has got amazing coverage, as I speak now an article has been put on the Guardian website about how Saints are refusing to rule out legal action against Flower and its the fourth Flower related article in the top ten sports stories. It's not good publicity either as the other articles include one reviewing all the previous incidents that have shocked rugby league including Hopoate and his wandering finger. Not the sort of news we need to remind people of.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Anyone taking that heat of battle dressing room team talk literally is an idiot. Plenty of idiots around then.

That sort of talk nothing more than part of hyping the players up to dominate their opponents with aggression and physicality. What you and the other idiots fail to mention is Wane's comments after the game, where he puts it in perspective and explains why he said what he did.

And I've heard far, far worse than that in RL (and RU) dressing rooms. It goes on in dressing rooms across the country every week, part of the process to gee your team up. None of it is taken literally.

And again, if this Wigan team, highly drilled in every aspect of their game, are being coached to 'knock players out', why aren't they doing it every week? Can someone please explain?

But that wouldn't fit the wailing and gnashing agenda, which, by the way, has tipped over the point of ridiculousness into the pitiful.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:26 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Absolutely, a point I put to Giant Daz a few pages back after he suggested no-one should stand beyond Flower in the face of his guilt, that anyone standing by him was "as sick as the perpetrator". I didn't get a reply.

It's an issue of huge consideration. People on here are wailing and gnashing for Flower to have his career ended, to be banged up in jail, to be made an example of, for Wane to be sacked and God knows what else. You'd think given the tragic events surrounding depression and ex-RL players these people would think a moment. All over one, albeit very bad, punch.

Of course some other posters have shown their true colours over the subject:

To be fair, Flower and Wane are the clear victims in this.

People calling them thugs and saying and saying they are sent out with instructions to hurt when all that happened is Flower punched an unconscious man in the head whilst he was down and Wane was on video telling his players to knock the opposition and be reckless.

Its almost like there are consequences for their actions. Its crazy. When did we start judging people on the things they say and do? Its political correctness gone mad!

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:27 pm  

Just watched the ITV News report on the issue with Martin Offiah. They handled it well.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:29 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

To be fair, Flower and Wane are the clear victims in this.

People calling them thugs and saying and saying they are sent out with instructions to hurt when all that happened is Flower punched an unconscious man in the head whilst he was down and Wane was on video telling his players to knock the opposition and be reckless.

Its almost like there are consequences for their actions. Its crazy

See above, you've just joined a non-exclusive gang.

Good to see you don't believe in the State of Mind campaign, or taking the mental welfare of players into considerations.

Well done you.

Did you sharpen your old 'outrage' pitchfork, or buy a new one?

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:35 pm  

Durham Giant wrote: You should read the Guardian article where Tony Smith talks about platers being influenced by watching MMA and raising coaching issues re Shaun Wane. Potentially this is worse than maybe either of us think http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/o ... all-league Significant input from Tony Smith there. He has been the most outspoken, alongside Brown, against Wigan's approach to the sport in recent years but even they have pulled their punches before. A little less so this time: "What I’m really annoyed about is some recent examples in the media, and fly-on-the-wall documentaries, that encourage that sort of thing – portraying it as something that should be done at professional level. Young coaches coming through could be influenced by that and I think it’s disgusting. I don’t think it portrays that individual too well but it’s how it could influence other people in the game and a real bad example of what our sport is about. “I’m a rugby league person. I enjoy the physicality of our sport. But it’s also got to be about self-discipline. When my players have misdemeanours that go across the line, as has undoubtedly happened, they are told that’s not acceptable. It’s no good to me having a player who’s going to jeopardise the foundations of the team."

Durham Giant wrote: You should read the Guardian article where Tony Smith talks about platers being influenced by watching MMA and raising coaching issues re Shaun Wane. Potentially this is worse than maybe either of us think http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/o ... all-league Significant input from Tony Smith there. He has been the most outspoken, alongside Brown, against Wigan's approach to the sport in recent years but even they have pulled their punches before. A little less so this time: "What I’m really annoyed about is some recent examples in the media, and fly-on-the-wall documentaries, that encourage that sort of thing – portraying it as something that should be done at professional level. Young coaches coming through could be influenced by that and I think it’s disgusting. I don’t think it portrays that individual too well but it’s how it could influence other people in the game and a real bad example of what our sport is about. “I’m a rugby league person. I enjoy the physicality of our sport. But it’s also got to be about self-discipline. When my players have misdemeanours that go across the line, as has undoubtedly happened, they are told that’s not acceptable. It’s no good to me having a player who’s going to jeopardise the foundations of the team."

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:43 pm  

Cronus wrote:

See above, you've just joined a non-exclusive gang.

Good to see you don't believe in the State of Mind campaign, or taking the mental welfare of players into considerations.

Well done you.

Did you sharpen your old 'outrage' pitchfork, or buy a new one?

State of Mind is a very worthwhile cause designed to help people with mental health issues. It isnt there to protect you from the negative consequences of your actions and it is a pretty classless choice to use it as such.

If Ben Flower goes on to suffer from such a mental health issue he should get all the professional help available to him and not one person would begrudge him that. It isnt, and never will be a protection from the consequences of his actions and to attempt to link it someway shows a huge misunderstanding of not only the State of Mind campaign but of mental health in general.

To attempt such deflection and try and portray this as some sort of concerted effort to push some vulnerable victim towards suicide is idiotic, to invoke the sad story of Terry Newton to try and do so somehow manages to limbo under the very low bar you repeatedly set yourself.