Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:03 pm  

As this develops more in the media, I think the RFL will have to go beyond the Grade F and its 8 match ban to repair the image of the sport and keep the prosecution service of its backs. It wouldn't surprise me if the ban is something similar to Newton on Long.
It does,t really matter which club the player comes from the incident is something we,ve never seen happen before in professional super league, you can't show any leniency whatsoever the incident cannot be repeated again otherwise one day it might be possible we are looking at a manslaughter event in sport. For me a minimum of 12 matches and a further 12 month suspended ban if further similar occurrence.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:21 pm  

vbfg wrote:

You know that thing where people on the internet think they have a point to make?

He punched a man unconscious on the floor. What he knew about the degree of damage he'd already done is irrelevant, as it would be if he was stood in front of a judge after punching an unconscious prone man on the floor. Having put him on the floor he removed any notion of self defence when he continued to attack him. Twice.

Surprised to see anything but utter condemnation for his actions this deep into the thread.

I'd have no problem at all with it if he goes to jail - a less hyperbolic statement than saying it's okay because you've heard of ten year olds also being told to knock the opposition out.

Maybe I'm older than you, but do you never remember as a kid being told to (for example) 'knock his block off"? (e.g. How to respond if a bully hit you). It's not what is usually said nowadays, but it often was back then. My point about it is that no kid, *literally* took such advice to mean 'hit that person so hard that his head literally leaves his body'. Taking the words literally, 'knock his block off' is a pretty harsh instruction! In fact it's technically worse than 'knock people out' if you take it ABSOLUTELY LITERALLY, with no context whatsoever. In the same way, none of the Wigan players took Wane's comments to mean "go and punch someone unconcious". As every single pundit on radio 5 to tonight agreed, that sort of comment goes on in many many dressing rooms. Not all, but many. If you, quite rightly, argue that 'knock his block off' in the 'olden days' doesn't actually mean exactly what it lierally says, then maybe you could consider the possiblity that Wane wasn't actually instructing his players to punch people unconcious.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:26 pm  

My thoughts after some time to talk to others, read the newspapers, watch the footage and listen to apologies from all concerned at the Wigan club.
1. What happened before the punch on the floor is almost irrelevant apart from to describe the events leading up to the second punch. There was some kind of contact in back-play as Hohaia chased thorough (happens ever game), Hohaia ran into Flower and made contact with his head an Flower reacted with a punch to the head. None of these things are particularly rare in the game.

2. The second punch was a disgusting act. I'm not buying the fact Flower "didn't realise" Hohaia was unconscious. I can tell immediately that a man lying on his back, with his arms splayed at his side and not moving is unconscious. When Flower pulled back his fist to land the second punch, a conscious man would have made some effort to either roll away or put his arms in front of his face in defence. Hohaia did neither of these - it's clear immediately he was unconscious and Flower, knowing he had already landed a forceful punch on his head, would have known this too.

3. Is it a criminal act? It could be.
When players walk out to play a physical contact sport, there is an acceptance that things that would normally be against the law are going to take place, but protection is provided by the game's regulations. RL players go out on the understanding that at times, punches can be thrown. However, I don't think any players would expect to be punched in the head whilst they lie unconscious on the ground. It goes so far beyond the regulations put in place by the game's governing body that police action could be needed to deal with the seriousness of the act.

4. Is the incident an indication of a deliberate attempt by Wigan to seriously injure fellow players?
I think it's a fair question to be raised. There will be no proof that this is the case, as most team-talks and instructions are confidential and not in the public domain. However, the footage of Shaun Wane instructing his players to "be reckless", "cause mayhem" and "knock people out" doesn't reflect well on him as a coach or the club, and it's not unreasonable for people to link this with the fact Flower has then "knocked out" an opposition player (for me the passage of time between that teamtalk and the Grand Final probably doesn't prove a link, but if this is the kind of message often given to Wigan players then Wane does hold some responsibility).

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:32 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan?

Well its one injury that occurred against Wigan this season.

After seeing that DVD clip it leaves any injury involving your club open to debate now...classic PR for the clubs image

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:42 pm  

duke street 10 wrote:

Well its one injury that occurred against Wigan this season.

After seeing that DVD clip it leaves any injury involving your club open to debate now...classic PR for the clubs image

Just what was Lenegan thinking allowing that nonsense to be broadcast? It's almost as if he has no regard for the wigan club's image and reputation at all.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:42 pm  

nottinghamtiger wrote:

4. Is the incident an indication of a deliberate attempt by Wigan to seriously injure fellow players?
I think it's a fair question to be raised. There will be no proof that this is the case, as most team-talks and instructions are confidential and not in the public domain. However, the footage of Shaun Wane instructing his players to "be reckless", "cause mayhem" and "knock people out" doesn't reflect well on him as a coach or the club, and it's not unreasonable for people to link this with the fact Flower has then "knocked out" an opposition player (for me the passage of time between that teamtalk and the Grand Final probably doesn't prove a link, but if this is the kind of message often given to Wigan players then Wane does hold some responsibility).

It would be a fair question to ask if it was an unprovoked attack. Then you could argue that Flower's motivation was instructions from the coach. However, the fact that this came after he got hit in the face makes it pretty clear that his motivation was retaliation (albeit a disproportionate and totally inappropriate retaliation).

That's where this argument falls down. It can't be a product of Wane's team talks, or the club culture, or anything else like that, if it happened in response to getting hit. And the fact that this is such an exceptional case also makes it plain that this is not something Wigan, or any other team for that matter, do as a matter of course, as part of some gameplan. When it happens, like it does with any team, it does so in the heat of the moment, usually in response to a perceived transgression from the opposing player. Very few players can be said to have spontaneously attacked another player simply to injure them, and I doubt any at all have done so on instruction from their club.

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:44 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote: Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan? I suppose practise will make perfect!! http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6412322

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote: Any other players broke their jaws this season, or just that one caused by Wigan? I suppose practise will make perfect!! http://www.wigantoday.net/sport/wigan-w ... -1-6412322

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:45 pm  

RLBandit wrote:

Maybe I'm older than you, but do you never remember as a kid being told to (for example) 'knock his block off"? (e.g. How to respond if a bully hit you). It's not what is usually said nowadays, but it often was back then. My point about it is that no kid, *literally* took such advice to mean 'hit that person so hard that his head literally leaves his body'. Taking the words literally, 'knock his block off' is a pretty harsh instruction! In fact it's technically worse than 'knock people out' if you take it ABSOLUTELY LITERALLY, with no context whatsoever. In the same way, none of the Wigan players took Wane's comments to mean "go and punch someone unconcious". As every single pundit on radio 5 to tonight agreed, that sort of comment goes on in many many dressing rooms. Not all, but many. If you, quite rightly, argue that 'knock his block off' in the 'olden days' doesn't actually mean exactly what it lierally says, then maybe you could consider the possiblity that Wane wasn't actually instructing his players to punch people unconcious.

You comepletely fail to understand that being told once or twice to knock someones block off as a kid is not even remotely the same as systematically being conditioned to hurt someone in a job that already allows pretty high levels of violence already.
You're not asking people to go from competitively playing conkers in the playground to smashing a lads head against the wall if you lose, you're being giving permission on a very regular basis to go one step further than you already do.
Think you need to do some reading up on human behaviour because you have no idea whatsoever..

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:50 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

It would be a fair question to ask if it was an unprovoked attack. Then you could argue that Flower's motivation was instructions from the coach. However, the fact that this came after he got hit in the face makes it pretty clear that his motivation was retaliation (albeit a disproportionate and totally inappropriate retaliation).

That's where this argument falls down. It can't be a product of Wane's team talks, or the club culture, or anything else like that, if it happened in response to getting hit. And the fact that this is such an exceptional case also makes it plain that this is not something Wigan, or any other team for that matter, do as a matter of course, as part of some gameplan. When it happens, like it does with any team, it does so in the heat of the moment, usually in response to a perceived transgression from the opposing player. Very few players can be said to have spontaneously attacked another player simply to injure them, and I doubt any at all have done so on instruction from their club.

I'd probably agree.
However, the Wigan club made a big mistake letting cameras into the dressing room if this is the kind of message Wane gives the players. Putting the footage of that team talk ("cause mayhem/be reckless/knock people out") alongside the actions of Ben Flower makes a clear implication that, although he wasn't given the direct instruction to punch Hohaia, that TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR is acceptable and indeed promoted (sorry for the CAPS, can't work out how to bold!).

Re: Ben Flower : Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:53 pm  

Does anyone think it was just pure co-incidence it happened to be saints only recognised halfback Hohaia who just happened to be taken out? Flower did go for him first. You wonder whether he may (or maynot) have been under some instruction.

Nothing would suprise me from a team that allegedly has a hit list handed round on what injuries and operations players have had in the last 12 months.