Re: Elite Academies : Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:59 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

Obviously lads with high squad numbers can get games late in the season covering injuries, and I agree that dosen't make them "professionals" nor the academy a producer of professionals.

Leeds were the first club to push for academies followed by Wigan. I am thinking Carl Ablett, Danny McGuire, Lee Smith, Ryan Bailey, Matt Diskin, Jamie Peacock (via Bulls academy) matt Diskin (from Dewsbury) Luke Burgess (Liversedge), Ben Jones Bishop, Jamie Jones Buchanan, Richie Mathers, Mark Calderwood, Chev Walker, Paul McShane, Danny ward and Ryan Hall (rothwell)....

All successful players indeed, but where are such players now at Leeds? Liam Sutcliffe and Ash Handley seem to be the only successes from the Leeds area academy.

If the founding academy with a lengthy record of producing it's own talent is struggling badly what of other clubs beyond Wigan & Saints......

How does Jamie Peacock count? He’d already won the man of steel and captained a grand final winning team before he signed for Leeds.

BTW that’s not taking anything away from Leeds academy success. They’re still churning them out too.

Re: Elite Academies : Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:13 pm  

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote:

How does Jamie Peacock count? He’d already won the man of steel and captained a grand final winning team before he signed for Leeds.

BTW that’s not taking anything away from Leeds academy success. They’re still churning them out too.

I’m not even sure Bradford can really count him as a. Academy product because he was about 19 or 20 when we signed him from Stanningley and sent him out on loan to a uni team in Australia.

Re: Elite Academies : Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:18 pm  

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote:

How does Jamie Peacock count? He’d already won the man of steel and captained a grand final winning team before he signed for Leeds.

BTW that’s not taking anything away from Leeds academy success. They’re still churning them out too.

Peacock counts because he was developed by a Leeds amateur club. I'm just noting geographically where we get our players from and in what numbers, it isn't a competition, you don't have to claim Jamie as one of your own.......

Leeds are not churning them out at all mate - read my posts the quality of the top RL players who came from Leeds 10 or more years ago is far greater that it is now, and that's a massive worry.

Do you remember the Wigan teams of old packed with Wigan born, bred, and home grown developed talent???

This current Wigan squad only contains Marshall, Powell, Farrel. Partington and Bibby actually from Wigan......

Re: Elite Academies : Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:53 pm  

Donnyman wrote:

Peacock counts because he was developed by a Leeds amateur club. I'm just noting geographically where we get our players from and in what numbers, it isn't a competition, you don't have to claim Jamie as one of your own.......

Leeds are not churning them out at all mate - read my posts the quality of the top RL players who came from Leeds 10 or more years ago is far greater that it is now, and that's a massive worry.

Do you remember the Wigan teams of old packed with Wigan born, bred, and home grown developed talent???

This current Wigan squad only contains Marshall, Powell, Farrel. Partington and Bibby actually from Wigan......

So you agree that an academy isn’t an answer.i It’s not a pathway or a gateway to future rewards. What needs to be explained is how an academy works as opposed to the community game and what happens to those players.

Should they make the grade of an academy then not make the grade of SL what happens to them?

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:40 am  

Donnyman wrote:

Peacock counts because he was developed by a Leeds amateur club. I'm just noting geographically where we get our players from and in what numbers, it isn't a competition, you don't have to claim Jamie as one of your own.......

Leeds are not churning them out at all mate - read my posts the quality of the top RL players who came from Leeds 10 or more years ago is far greater that it is now, and that's a massive worry.

Do you remember the Wigan teams of old packed with Wigan born, bred, and home grown developed talent???

This current Wigan squad only contains Marshall, Powell, Farrel. Partington and Bibby actually from Wigan......

Ok I see what you mean. The problem IMO is the relatively small talent pool we are working worth.

Surely the answer is academies, a thriving amateur scene and schools rugby league?

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:14 am  

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote:

Ok I see what you mean. The problem IMO is the relatively small talent pool we are working worth.

Surely the answer is academies, a thriving amateur scene and schools rugby league?

That’s always been the answer.

The main obstacle has always been the clubs, including Bradford in their pomp.

You go on about Bradford’s products but what have they or any other club done to make these things happen. Nothing and they never really have. Not when it comes to spending money, that goes on past it Aussies for short term gain.

It takes time, effort and above all money to create a true infrastructure, Union knows it, the FA know it but SL wasted it’s golden egg when the TV money arrived.

Only Leeds and Wigan have ever really made the youth system work and even then only by plundering and stockpiling all the talent.

Where are the schools and junior clubs affiliated to them, where are the leagues run and supported by them?

Truth is nobody is interested until they reach 16 then it’s too late. By then the talent pool is too small and the late developers have nowhere to go.

You look at the Aussie system, they are miles ahead. The NRL teams run junior teams but they are basically finishing schools, all the hard works been done. Our Academies are like re-education camps, because there is no connection between the pro game and junior RL despite what the clubs say.

We can tinker with the Academies all we like and to be fair they all try their best but until the raw material is improved they will remain fairly ineffective. Truth is that imho there is no other sport who’s elite level is so disconnected from its grass roots that they are barely the same sport,

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:08 pm  

vastman wrote: That’s always been the answer. The main obstacle has always been the clubs, including Bradford in their pomp. You go on about Bradford’s products but what have they or any other club done to make these things happen. Nothing and they never really have. Not when it comes to spending money, that goes on past it Aussies for short term gain. It takes time, effort and above all money to create a true infrastructure, Union knows it, the FA know it but SL wasted it’s golden egg when the TV money arrived. We can tinker with the Academies all we like and to be fair they all try their best but until the raw material is improved they will remain fairly ineffective. Truth is that imho there is no other sport who’s elite level is so disconnected from its grass roots that they are barely the same sport, Thanks to Maccbull atomic and your good self........ I think you make the same general point, but we must remember that the last SKY deal was big enough to not only help fund "academies" but also "foundations"..... Very little ever appears on message boards about the "charitable" foundations at the SL clubs. Charitable they are to a point but a large part of their time is promoting RL to local schools. As I understand it JJB has worked for the Leeds Foundation and put rugby balls in kids hands, and encouraged kids teams to be formed. I don't think it fair to say clubs do nothing, SL clubs have the funding to do this, something Bradford don't get hence they can't do the foundation.......... https://www.leedsrhinosfoundation.org/ I think Salford who have no academy still have a foundation https://twitter.com/SRDFoundation?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor We've got to be fair here, SL clubs deliver a lot of hard work to try to encourage kids to play and have done for most of the current 5 year TV contract.....

vastman wrote: That’s always been the answer. The main obstacle has always been the clubs, including Bradford in their pomp. You go on about Bradford’s products but what have they or any other club done to make these things happen. Nothing and they never really have. Not when it comes to spending money, that goes on past it Aussies for short term gain. It takes time, effort and above all money to create a true infrastructure, Union knows it, the FA know it but SL wasted it’s golden egg when the TV money arrived. We can tinker with the Academies all we like and to be fair they all try their best but until the raw material is improved they will remain fairly ineffective. Truth is that imho there is no other sport who’s elite level is so disconnected from its grass roots that they are barely the same sport, Thanks to Maccbull atomic and your good self........ I think you make the same general point, but we must remember that the last SKY deal was big enough to not only help fund "academies" but also "foundations"..... Very little ever appears on message boards about the "charitable" foundations at the SL clubs. Charitable they are to a point but a large part of their time is promoting RL to local schools. As I understand it JJB has worked for the Leeds Foundation and put rugby balls in kids hands, and encouraged kids teams to be formed. I don't think it fair to say clubs do nothing, SL clubs have the funding to do this, something Bradford don't get hence they can't do the foundation.......... https://www.leedsrhinosfoundation.org/ I think Salford who have no academy still have a foundation https://twitter.com/SRDFoundation?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor We've got to be fair here, SL clubs deliver a lot of hard work to try to encourage kids to play and have done for most of the current 5 year TV contract.....

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:28 pm  

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote: Ok I see what you mean. The problem IMO is the relatively small talent pool we are working worth. Surely the answer is schools rugby league? https://bullsfoundation.org/ I am wrong to think Bulls do not have a foundation, it's here

Maccbull_BigBullyBooaza wrote: Ok I see what you mean. The problem IMO is the relatively small talent pool we are working worth. Surely the answer is schools rugby league? https://bullsfoundation.org/ I am wrong to think Bulls do not have a foundation, it's here

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 3:40 pm  

atomic wrote: So you agree that an academy isn’t an answer.i It’s not a pathway or a gateway to future rewards. What needs to be explained is how an academy works as opposed to the community game and what happens to those players.Should they make the grade of an academy then not make the grade of SL what happens to them? https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/v2/leigh-community-trust/ Your club appear to run a "community trust" that promotes the game in positive ways....... AFAIK the issue with academies taking kids away from community clubs is it depletes these clubs youth teams and they disband. But it is the case as kids get to 16 they tend to find other things to do that they may see as more grown up. It may be that handing out academy places when kids are 15 keeps them playing because there's a chance of making the grade. My own evidence is our local junior soccer league which several leagues at each age range but by the time kids hit 16 there was only one league as so many kids decide to stop playing around that age. The professional clubs were moving in when kids were 13 and 14.......

atomic wrote: So you agree that an academy isn’t an answer.i It’s not a pathway or a gateway to future rewards. What needs to be explained is how an academy works as opposed to the community game and what happens to those players.Should they make the grade of an academy then not make the grade of SL what happens to them? https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/v2/leigh-community-trust/ Your club appear to run a "community trust" that promotes the game in positive ways....... AFAIK the issue with academies taking kids away from community clubs is it depletes these clubs youth teams and they disband. But it is the case as kids get to 16 they tend to find other things to do that they may see as more grown up. It may be that handing out academy places when kids are 15 keeps them playing because there's a chance of making the grade. My own evidence is our local junior soccer league which several leagues at each age range but by the time kids hit 16 there was only one league as so many kids decide to stop playing around that age. The professional clubs were moving in when kids were 13 and 14.......

Re: Elite Academies : Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:09 pm  

I see lots of names being mentioned here - most don't count.

The RFL are only counting first team products from the last period of the academy licence.

The next set of applications will only consider products from THIS academy licence period.

I have no doubt that in 5 years time, some clubs will be still finding someone else to blame.