: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:37 pm  

redeverready wrote:

The only way a video ref could possibly rule on forward passes is if the pitch was lined every meter the full length of the pitch.

What about the momentum rule?

But I'm not sure the pitch would need a line every metre, surely Sky have the technology to do these using computers?

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:07 pm  

Bully_Boxer wrote:

What about the momentum rule?

But I'm not sure the pitch would need a line every metre, surely Sky have the technology to do these using computers?

Yes it's the hawk-eye system which needs a minimum of 14 cameras to work in a normal stadium at Odsal you would talking around 20 cameras.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:55 pm  

debaser wrote:

If the receiving player is a yard in front of the passer, its usually a good indication. Or is that the momentum rule?

Spot on!.
Its not the marginal forward passes that are are a problem, nor the application of the "momemtum rule", its the blatant cases that you describe.
We dont need technology to identify these, simply touch judges to be up with play and call them competently if the Ref be unsighted, out of position or looking elsewhere.
Is this really too much to ask?

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:41 am  

I can understand the ref missing the odd forward pass as he is stood with the defensive line. But i am always amazed at how the linesmen manage to miss forward pass after forward pass

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:53 am  

some passes just lately are so far forward you cannot believe how they are not seen

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:09 am  

A tj can only call a forward pass if he is sure it is, if he`s in line with it and the player is just passing along line its easy, but if a player is running at 10mph and tj is behind play,because half of them are over 60 and past it, then they can`t be certain, its easy for fans to be stood still and in line with thrower but alot harder if ur 20 yards behind.

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:09 pm  

Dawson wrote:

I can understand the ref missing the odd forward pass as he is stood with the defensive line. But i am always amazed at how the linesmen manage to miss forward pass after forward pass

Exactly, some forward passes are borderline and advantage should be played but there are more and more blatant forward passes not being spotted.

In the Wakefield game we were pulled up for two forward passes whereas Wakeys first try was clearly a forward pass, I saw it from the stand and also when watching the highlights so I have no idea how the linesman could miss it, or is it a case of not having the bottle to give the forward pass.

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:26 pm  

redeverready wrote:

Yes it's the hawk-eye system which needs a minimum of 14 cameras to work in a normal stadium at Odsal you would talking around 20 cameras.

You could put an RFID tag in the ball then at any point in time you could see where the ball(s) is/are on the pitch. Correlate this to the game time and this could help in identifying forward passes. This correlation should take a couple of minute - same time as a video ref check

Obviously thats just an idea and specialists would be needed to iron out details but if you can track players by the same method then as long as the RFID tag can stay inside the ball without altering the balls dynamics through the air - that, in theory should work

Might be too expensive now, but in a few years when the technology is more comoditised this solution could be a go-er!

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:37 pm  

I still don't understand how they can judge off-sides but not forward passes. It is exactly the same principle, except it is even harder to judge off-sides because the kicking player and receiving player are often not even in the same frame.

I think that they should at least TRY to rule on forward passes - that would at least weed out the most obvious ones. Surely that's better than what we currently have.

: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:41 pm  

If a player who is moving forward throws a flat pass, and assuming windspeed is not in the equation, the ball will travel in a forward direction. The famous "momentum" rule". Simple as that. Basic maths and physics.

If you really wanted to, you could work out just how far forward it would travel, approximately, doing a parallelogram of forces diagram (if I remember my O-level maths right... ) and maybe a bit of trigonometry. Before allowing for air resistance of course.

And to do that you'd need to know things like the speed (and direction of travel) of the player; the speed of the ball in the pass; the windspeed... but basically the higher the forward speed of the player relative to the speed of the ball in the pass, the further forward the ball will travel (I think - its decades since I did any physics).

Now the thing IS...given all that, just how can ANYONE (player, ref, touchie, vidref, bent vidref, Stevo, another muppet...) judge if a marginal pass is really forward? We'd have to stop the game and do some maths every pass!

Its easy if the player is not moving (much) when he passes - if its forward its forward. But much harder if, say, a player is running hard and gives a lobbing pass over the top of a defender rather than firing a bullet pass out. In that latter case, the ball could travel several yards forward and yet the pass could still have been flat at worst.

I can't see how a vidref would be that better placed to judge, to be honest. You'd need a transmitter in the ball, and receivers all round the pitch and a computer to do the trigonometry to be able to tell for certain if the ball went forward. Is that really what we want? (Except when playing Leeds, obviously )

Seems to me the best way to judge is to look at how, and in what direction, the ball leaves the passer's hands? And, generally, exercise judgment. Is that what happens, and refs out there?