KC - An Alternative Option : Mon May 09, 2016 11:42 am  

Obviously there is a pretty big divide in opinions of fans over KC - should he be sacked, shouldn't he be sacked etc, McManus won't sack him etc.

As my favourite ever player, I would love nothing more than to see him succeed as a coach. His status at the club means he is probably getting far more leeway with the chairman than other coaches have had before him, and I do believe if it was anybody else who was in charge right now his job would be at risk.

With how we are playing at the moment there is fair reason for people to question the security of his job - my personal opinion is that booing when he comes on the screen isnt the right way to go about it but each to their own - but its clear to see things arent working and we need help.

KC is in only his second season as a head coach and still has a lot to learn - but the main issue for me is that he is surrounded on the coaching staff by Long, Lolesi, Wellens, Gardner etc - none of who are experienced coaches either. With any coaching job, it is inevitable that a time will come when things don't go well, but experience is usually the best remedy to fixing it.

Using Lee Radford at Hull as an example, he has had a difficult first 2 seasons coaching but has people like Andy Last (who has been on the coaching scene for donkey's years), Motu Tony (been around a good while and also has built up a good network of contacts which helps in terms of recruitment as part of his role) and I think this is the main difference why he he has been able to turn it around - and FWIW I think Hull look like they could be the real deal this season.

It got me wondering if it was as simple as sack KC/don't sack him and maybe the option of bringing in somebody more experienced to oversee the full operation and help him to develop would be the best way forward. This way, McManus can save face by not sacking him, KC can save face by keeping the head coach role but a more experienced figure can come in for a couple of seasons and help him develop his strategy - playing wise, training wise, recruitment wise - and providing he learns from who came in he could very well turn into a far better coach in a couple of seasons. I know KC would probably be reluctant for this but if he can see it is the best move for the club he loves so much (and his own career) I am sure he could be persuaded

Somebody like John Kear - who has just agreed to do a similar job for Wakefield next season - would have been ideal imo, and potentially even Tony Smith (been at Wire for a while now could have been tempted by a new challenge if money was right) could have fit the bill. The problem is (both of these now committed elsewhere) finding the right man for the job...not sure there is a great selection out there to choose from.

Do people think this could be a viable solution, or should it just be that simple that KC isn't doing it and needs to be replaced ASAP? Would be interested to hear people's thoughts (apologies if this has been posted before, havent seen it discussed yet)

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Mon May 09, 2016 12:36 pm  

The lack of experience thing was something we all called when KC was appointed. Having an older head, who has been around the block and built up a wealth of game and man management experience is clearly the right thing to do when the rest of the coaching team is so raw. The thing is though that you cannot do it retrospectively. If we brought in Wayne Bennett style guru, even a John Kear (Who would be more our level of cheapness) now it would just undermine Cunningham. I don't think the players respect KC as it is now, if they brought someone else in they would do even less. So not viable, not at all.

McManus probably knew this would happen, he just doesn't care. He tried to do things on the cheap as he always does and it's come back to bite him. He can now choose between sacking KC or suffering for the next two seasons and we all know he'll take the second option as he's gutless.

First thing the club needs to do is improve recruitment. Sack whoever is involved in that now and get someone in with proven contacts who can identify and attract the right players. Cunningham's hands are tied slightly by the lack of quality at the club, but I suspect he was involved in their signing in the first place. The likes of Dawson, Owens, Tasi and Peyroux should never have been signed and have come with his backing. His use of players and his man management both seem in question and whilst it's hard to judge his tactics with these players, it doesn't seem a particularly effective style we're playing with. Both offensively and defensively we've had major issues this season and it's hard to say that we're progress, almost two years into his reign.

For me he has to go. The players aren't happy, you can tell that from their body language and effort. Once that happens and the fans turn, it's nigh on impossible to claw your way back. But McManus hasn't got it in him to sack KC. His contract extension at the start of the year was a bizarre move and leaves us chained to KC for the next couple of years as McManus will not pay the money to see him depart.

Tony Smith has just signed a new deal at Wire by the way.

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Mon May 09, 2016 3:47 pm  

Being a good player does not guarantee being a good coach, you need communication skills, if you watch KC at times on match days he looks as if he knows he is out of his depth, at least Kevin Sinfield held his hand up and admitted he does not want to be a club coach, every player who retires can't just coach.

Doubt McManus will ever admit he got it wrong, he went along with all the glory times of the statue, the Knowsley Road Ground housing beeing names Cunningham, for someone who had just finished this was all to much, far too quickly. But as I stated on the match thread it goes deeper at the club, recruitment has not been good, why was Owen ever signed, and why did KC rate a free transfer as such a big success? I still doubt also the CEO, again I have said Rush seems a nice guy but is he fully up to the job? then Mr McManus himself, has he took the club as far as it can be taken? I feel so, St Helens is one of the big national names in the UK & worldwide for Rugby League but is it really living up to that any longer, change is needed.

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Mon May 09, 2016 9:25 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

The lack of experience thing was something we all called when KC was appointed. Having an older head, who has been around the block and built up a wealth of game and man management experience is clearly the right thing to do when the rest of the coaching team is so raw. The thing is though that you cannot do it retrospectively. If we brought in Wayne Bennett style guru, even a John Kear (Who would be more our level of cheapness) now it would just undermine Cunningham. I don't think the players respect KC as it is now, if they brought someone else in they would do even less. So not viable, not at all.

McManus probably knew this would happen, he just doesn't care. He tried to do things on the cheap as he always does and it's come back to bite him. He can now choose between sacking KC or suffering for the next two seasons and we all know he'll take the second option as he's gutless.

First thing the club needs to do is improve recruitment. Sack whoever is involved in that now and get someone in with proven contacts who can identify and attract the right players. Cunningham's hands are tied slightly by the lack of quality at the club, but I suspect he was involved in their signing in the first place. The likes of Dawson, Owens, Tasi and Peyroux should never have been signed and have come with his backing. His use of players and his man management both seem in question and whilst it's hard to judge his tactics with these players, it doesn't seem a particularly effective style we're playing with. Both offensively and defensively we've had major issues this season and it's hard to say that we're progress, almost two years into his reign.

For me he has to go. The players aren't happy, you can tell that from their body language and effort. Once that happens and the fans turn, it's nigh on impossible to claw your way back. But McManus hasn't got it in him to sack KC. His contract extension at the start of the year was a bizarre move and leaves us chained to KC for the next couple of years as McManus will not pay the money to see him depart.

Tony Smith has just signed a new deal at Wire by the way.

Recruitment is a major problem over the last two years. Brown got most of his signings spot on and they played for him and we was back up as contenders and won the grand final. It seems KC has brought in some real shockers in peyroux, Owens, Tasi etc and it's set us back years .

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 7:12 am  

If kc is in charge of recruitment i cant see hope for him as a coach.

To be fair though remember when brian mac was going through a similar thing at leeds. Then he led them to the treble.

Im 50 50 on it but things need to change.
I would really like to hear some honest opinions from the players

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 7:15 am  

Obviously not on a public forum because that would be unfair on the players. But if there is any inside info from players i would love a pm

Be great if a player could say what he really thinks in an interview without it causing his place in the team which it would inevitably do

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 11:53 am  

St pete wrote:

Recruitment is a major problem over the last two years. Brown got most of his signings spot on and they played for him and we was back up as contenders and won the grand final. It seems KC has brought in some real shockers in peyroux, Owens, Tasi etc and it's set us back years .

I got (gently) shot down for critisising Peyroux about a month back. The lad's honest and hard working but offers no strike whatsoever, and like Dawson just seems to be a stop gap. I thought people were harsh on Owens but he does look incredibly out of his depth. Tasi offers nothing.

The salary cap is restrictive however the standard of recruitment is poorer than the lads we're bringing through. Knowles looks excellent. Thompson when he plays offers tons more than Tasi and Richards. Like Roby, we're not using Savelio right. After retaining his services it just seems like he's been treated poorly.

I don't trust KC with recruitment anymore.

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 2:51 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

I got (gently) shot down for critisising Peyroux about a month back. The lad's honest and hard working but offers no strike whatsoever, and like Dawson just seems to be a stop gap. I thought people were harsh on Owens but he does look incredibly out of his depth. Tasi offers nothing.

The salary cap is restrictive however the standard of recruitment is poorer than the lads we're bringing through. Knowles looks excellent. Thompson when he plays offers tons more than Tasi and Richards. Like Roby, we're not using Savelio right. After retaining his services it just seems like he's been treated poorly.

I don't trust KC with recruitment anymore.

I think it was Sean Long who recommended Peyroux who is bit better in defence but not as good in attack as Turner. We should have made Owen a loan signing with a future contract if up to the mark. For me if Thompson can put on a bit more kilos he would replace Richards, also Knowles deserves a place in the 17 but he would have to replace Wilkin which won't happen.
Haven't got a clue whats going on with Savelio, is he a prop, second row or loose forward, Vea, LMS and Greenwood are keeping him out of the team but only just.

We,ve got loads of player "wastage" who are not up to the job, we definitely need a major cull next season.

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 3:03 pm  

Judder Man wrote:

I think it was Sean Long who recommended Peyroux who is bit better in defence but not as good in attack as Turner. We should have made Owen a loan signing with a future contract if up to the mark. For me if Thompson can put on a bit more kilos he would replace Richards, also Knowles deserves a place in the 17 but he would have to replace Wilkin which won't happen.
Haven't got a clue whats going on with Savelio, is he a prop, second row or loose forward, Vea, LMS and Greenwood are keeping him out of the team but only just.

We,ve got loads of player "wastage" who are not up to the job, we definitely need a major cull next season.

Thompson should be ahead of Richards on the basis of his performances this season (his game vs Widnes this year was the most accomplished of any of our young forwards have had imo) but has had concussive issues and the club are rightly proceeding cautiously.

I have bee worried for a while Savelio is becoming more and more like LMS in not really having a position despite being physically up to it. Personally, I would give Savelio the rest of the year in the right second row spot, and leave Vea out. It is his preferred position, and whilst he may struggle defensively initially, if he can improve it, he can get back on track as one of the best young forwards in the game.

Don't disagree with a major cull, but its all about whose coming in to replace them. I had defended recruitment this year in faith KC knew what he was doing ... He doesn't.

Re: KC - An Alternative Option : Tue May 10, 2016 3:18 pm  

For a number of years now saints have recruited very poorly and are now suffering the aftermath. There are other factors to be considered such as Roby and Wilkin no longer the players they once were. Also the halfbacks whoever they may have been have not really caused the opposition problems, even with Walsh showing some form and Fages showing promise they cannot perform behind a beaten pack as Sunday proved only too well. The team selection at times has been to say the least rather bizarre and this is solely down to Cunningham as is the lack of structure both in attack and defense. The backroom staff needs to be looked at as Hull looked twice as fit as the Saints. The defense coach should be sacked as the Saints tackling technique is abysmal and leaks soft tries almost every game.

Cunningham needs to show some guts and trust some of the younger players rather than using the likes of McDonnell, Dawson and Owen who are not super league standard and should have no place in any future plans. I cannot see anything coming out of this season so why not start blooding what should be the future Saints players.

Savelio played all his junior rugby at loose forward yet KC uses him as a prop which in my opinion will disenchant the lad and destroy his confidence. Wilkin's time has past and Savelio should be given his shirt for a continued run and let him (Sav) prove one way or the other that he will be part of the future Saints pack.