Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:29 am  

I hate St Helens with a passion, but only some one kidding themselves would suggest Warrington are a bigger club.
The biggest 3 teams in English Rugby are Wigan,Leeds & Saints.
I think it would take a sustained period of success for Warrington to have any claim at all.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:17 am  

Gazwire wrote:

Like those clubs, Saints have fallen from grace and are not at present, as big a club as they were- SL through the noughties. You've missed the point, so I'll put it another way: Do you believe that once a club becomes big, it stays big? (If that were true teams like Bolton, Preston Leeds Utd would still be classed as big clubs and that isn't the case.) The size of a club will fluctuate over different eras depending success etc. You've used a brilliant word in 'deluded', the perfect description of Twenty man's belief that Saints are still so much bigger than Warrington. At this point in time there's not much between the two of us, but over the past 6/ 7 years the balance has shifted and an outsider looking in would see the stats, the players signed etc etc and think that we were at least on par. Are Bradford Bulls still a big club?

My post may be hilarious and deluded to you, but only because you haven't taken the point I'm making regarding the size of a club changing at different points in history. By the way, in the past 6-7 years we've won 2 league leaders Shields as well as the 3 challenge cups.

Leicester have had one good year. I'd say Wire overall have had the better last 7 years. 7 years was enough time to see Leeds be overtaken by the likes of Chelsea as a bigger club. I'm not saying we're any bigger or any less, I don't really know, so perhaps you can help me out?- why have better players been attracted to our club in this time period if your club is bigger and better? If your club is bigger and better, why are our silverware hauls comparative:saints 1gf and 1ll v wire 3 cc and 2 ll? Why do wire have a higher average attendance if saints are the bigger and better club?

You call me deluded, but how long have you had that entertainers tag at the top of your forum page and when are you going to move it? Surely that goes against the trade descriptions act?

See Judder man's beautifully articulated reply.


Couldn't care less about Warrington or their lack of success, but I'll certainly attempt to remind the fans of it when they choose to come on our forum and gloat not about a victory, but about the shoddy officiating.

A big club is a team when you scroll your finger down your fixture list, and tap it on their name, making a mental note of when you're playing them. Saints fans do that with Wigan and Leeds. When we see Warrington's name we just think, 'best not take my car to that one'.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:11 pm  

Twentyman wrote:

See
A big club is a team when you scroll your finger down your fixture list, and tap it on their name, making a mental note of when you're playing them. Saints fans do that with Wigan and Leeds. When we see Warrington's name we just think, 'best not take my car to that one'.

To get across the car park,Kevlar clothing and a crash hat ordered for next season!!!

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:30 pm  

How do we define 'biggest clubs'?

My take fwiw over the SL period
Trophies - Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Bradford
No. of fans - Wigan, Leeds, Hull
Turnover / profit (my guess) - Leeds, Wire, maybe Wigan
Youth development (not just where youngsters come from) - Wigan, Leeds, maybe Wire and not sure about Saints

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:33 pm  

Gazwire wrote:

Like those clubs, Saints have fallen from grace and are not at present, as big a club as they were- SL through the noughties. You've missed the point, so I'll put it another way: Do you believe that once a club becomes big, it stays big? (If that were true teams like Bolton, Preston Leeds Utd would still be classed as big clubs and that isn't the case.) The size of a club will fluctuate over different eras depending success etc. You've used a brilliant word in 'deluded', the perfect description of Twenty man's belief that Saints are still so much bigger than Warrington. At this point in time there's not much between the two of us, but over the past 6/ 7 years the balance has shifted and an outsider looking in would see the stats, the players signed etc etc and think that we were at least on par. Are Bradford Bulls still a big club?

My post may be hilarious and deluded to you, but only because you haven't taken the point I'm making regarding the size of a club changing at different points in history. By the way, in the past 6-7 years we've won 2 league leaders Shields as well as the 3 challenge cups.

Leicester have had one good year. I'd say Wire overall have had the better last 7 years. 7 years was enough time to see Leeds be overtaken by the likes of Chelsea as a bigger club. I'm not saying we're any bigger or any less, I don't really know, so perhaps you can help me out?- why have better players been attracted to our club in this time period if your club is bigger and better? If your club is bigger and better, why are our silverware hauls comparative:saints 1gf and 1ll v wire 3 cc and 2 ll? Why do wire have a higher average attendance if saints are the bigger and better club?

You call me deluded, but how long have you had that entertainers tag at the top of your forum page and when are you going to move it? Surely that goes against the trade descriptions act?

Why would you cherry pick 7 years randomly as a comparison point? Is that because you coincidentally won your first recent trophy 7 years ago? Seems a bit convenient to me. As a comparison point, it would make much more sense to either cover the last 10 years (3 Challenge cups, 4 LLS and 2 SL titles for us vs 3 challenge cups and 2 LLS for you) or 5 years (1 LLS & 1 SL title for us vs 1 challenge cup & 2 LLS for you) and you've hardly eclipsed us in any of those comparisons. And where are the facts backing up your apparently higher average attendance? That's the first I've heard of it. Not calling you a liar but colour me skeptical. 12k for a semi-final (with 3.5k being from away fans) hardly screams big club.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:57 pm  

fez1 wrote:

How do we define 'biggest clubs'?

My take fwiw over the SL period
Trophies - Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Bradford
No. of fans - Wigan, Leeds, Hull
Turnover / profit (my guess) - Leeds, Wire, maybe Wigan
Youth development (not just where youngsters come from) - Wigan, Leeds, maybe Wire and not sure about Saints

In terms of attendance are we just picking out this season or are we going to go on the past don't know how many years? Because Saints have had bigger average attendances than Hull, especially since 96. Happy to be corrected on that.

In the current squad, you have Lomax, Makinson, Percival, Swift, Roby, Richards, Savelio, Thompson, Greenwood, Fleming, Knowles with the likes of Bailey, Wellington, Davies, Ashworth also making appearances this season...they all came through the youth development. There is plenty of talent playing elsewhere in SL and the NRL who came through our youth system. Our u-19's have just won the Grand Final and gone through the regular season unbeaten.

'Maybe' Wigan as you put it, have also produced a conveyor belt of continuous talent.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:20 pm  

fez1 wrote:

How do we define 'biggest clubs'?

My take fwiw over the SL period
Trophies - Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Bradford
No. of fans - Wigan, Leeds, Hull
Turnover / profit (my guess) - Leeds, Wire, maybe Wigan
Youth development (not just where youngsters come from) - Wigan, Leeds, maybe Wire and not sure about Saints

Not sure on our youth development?

Off the top of my head - lomax, Makinson, Percival, swift, Jamie Foster, Lee gaskell, Jamie Ellis, Chris dean, Wellington, ashworth, Jamie Ellis, Eastmond, James Graham, James Roby, Keiron Cunningham, Paul Wellens, Greenwood, Thompson, Wheeler, Richards, Knowles, emm it, Josh Jones, savilo, dixon, Ashurst, tyrer, Armstrong

That's just off top my head so we not done bad

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:22 pm  

fez1 wrote:

How do we define 'biggest clubs'?

My take fwiw over the SL period
Trophies - Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Bradford
No. of fans - Wigan, Leeds, Hull
Turnover / profit (my guess) - Leeds, Wire, maybe Wigan
Youth development (not just where youngsters come from) - Wigan, Leeds, maybe Wire and not sure about Saints

Its not about "biggest club" the term is "A Big Club" by way of stature in the game from the youngsters through to the senior professionals. In stature Bradford, Saints and Leeds have had long periods of domination, Wigan have had a couple of shorter periods of domination all at the highest competition level.
Hull and Warrington have been front runners throughout the season and are knocking on the door, but they have not been involved in a high percentage (60%) of play off games throughout the 19 years concept.

I,m assuming Youth Development (Saints) is just a wind up.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:40 pm  

Warrington need titles. You can't lay claim to being one of the games biggest clubs if you haven't won a title in over half a century. Titles are needed, not just one but multiple. Since the inception of the grand final on only 3 occasions have wigan not been either in the grand final, or the grand final semi. (99,05,06). That's some serious sh*t, consistently being there or thereabouts. Saints have never not contested the playoffs. Leeds have won more Super league grand finals than any other team. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Re: SORE LOSERS! : Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:07 pm  

In all honesty, I would say that Saints are the bigger club but we're getting closer. But how many more seasons of crap recruitment, dull as dishwater rugby and falling attendances will it take for the perception of Saints as a big club to go? Anyway, as a Wire fan, I'm enjoying the excitement of quality signings and being in contention for all major honours over recent years. It certainly feels better to be on the way up than on the way down.