You talk about taking a few years for a coach to build a side, in 2006 tm had to work with a team that had been put together by others and despite that he got 19 points and 11th position place i dont think there are many coaches that could have done much better in the same situation.
As i said the idea that tm would do well with more resources is just my opinion.
One other thing that i think tm gives us over kear is bringing the kids through, i know kear has played alot of kids this year but only becuase he was forced to originally kear had planed to have 10 (or 11 i cant quite remember) overseas players in his team. Tm has brought through owen, westerman, boyle, clark, milner, arundel, walker, holmes and thompson and made much better players out of huby and shenton, and has players like eden, davies and massey coming through next. kear would fill our team with motu tonys and jeremy smiths and thats not what i want to see.
The fact that kear is a cas lad shouldnt come into it are you saying that tm would be a better coach if he came from cas?
Aren't you contradicting yourself here. In one breath you are priasing TM for bringing our own kids through, and the next breath suggesting that it shouldn't matter if Kear is a Cas lad or not. So it matters if the kids are from our area, but not if the coaches are from our area?? Or with the same reverse twist that you applied to my point, would Kear in your eyes be a better coach if he was an Aussie?
Again I am seeing pro TM points of view given with a 'rose tint' and the same arguments being held against JK. TM has brought his fair share of cronies into the team, and there are just as many stories about how some youngsters faces have fit with TM, and some haven't and hence they have left the club. Liam watts might be on reasonable example.
Opinions will vary, however I think that JK is worthy of a 2 or 3 years stint at Cas. He's achieved a higher SL positional finish than TM ever has with Cas, with arguably less resources. The 11th spot that you refer to with TM, that's only 1 above bottom. It doesn't give him much in terms of bragging rights. Rumour has it that JK has already been to Cas with cap in hand over the past couple of years and been turned away, so I guess we'll never know.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here. In one breath you are priasing TM for bringing our own kids through, and the next breath suggesting that it shouldn't matter if Kear is a Cas lad or not. So it matters if the kids are from our area, but not if the coaches are from our area?? Or with the same reverse twist that you applied to my point, would Kear in your eyes be a better coach if he was an Aussie?
Again I am seeing pro TM points of view given with a 'rose tint' and the same arguments being held against JK. TM has brought his fair share of cronies into the team, and there are just as many stories about how some youngsters faces have fit with TM, and some haven't and hence they have left the club. Liam watts might be on reasonable example.
Opinions will vary, however I think that JK is worthy of a 2 or 3 years stint at Cas. He's achieved a higher SL positional finish than TM ever has with Cas, with arguably less resources. The 11th spot that you refer to with TM, that's only 1 above bottom. It doesn't give him much in terms of bragging rights. Rumour has it that JK has already been to Cas with cap in hand over the past couple of years and been turned away, so I guess we'll never know.
I'm not contradicting myself at all, plying young local kids is different from having a local coach, one is a stated requirement from the rfl and is vital to our future one is neither of those things.
I dont think tm is a better coach because hes an aussie i think hes a better coach because he is better. The sentimentality of where kear comes from is irrelevant for us picking a coach.
It would be just as easy for me to say that you are looking at kear through rose tinted glasses and you havent demonstrated anyway how kear will be an improvement as ocach other than he's a local lad, mark astons a cas lad but i dont think he is upto the job either. If we are going to bring a cas lad into our coaching set up i would like to see anderson being made our assistant with a view to being the head coach if he proves himself.
Who would be the 'fair share of cronies' tm has brought in?
Not every academy player makes it with there local side, and thats true for every team in the competition, we have emmit for instance who has been great for us, does that mean the saints coach who let him go is a poor one. As i understand it watts was let go becuase him and westy were as thick as thieves and even though it was more down to westy we let watts go to try and keep westy on the straight and narrow, which at the time imo opinion was a good decision (with no benefit of hindsight). Equally i've heard plenty of stories of kear leaving good kids in the reserves and playing overseas players instead.
At the end of the day some players will respond to different coaches differently, ferres has developed far more under tm than he did under kear, while grix has become much better at hudds.
I dont think when kear finished 5th he had less resources, i think he had more he had the likes of brough, drew, rooney, leo latu, obst in key positions and much more depth.
I dont think we can afford to have jk for 2 or 3 years as if we have 2 or 3 poor years we wont get a franchise, we have consistantly finished mid table in the last 3 years (when tm had the chance to build a good team as apposed to the ones thrown together from the scraps the other clubs left us with in 2006 and 2008).
11th maybe only one off bottom but that alot more than most coaches of promoted teams have managed and he was only 1 point of 10th (and only 3 behind 8th) which considering tm inherited someone elses team and had to use 2 halfbacks that werent up to the job for much of the season.
I'm not contradicting myself at all, plying young local kids is different from having a local coach, one is a stated requirement from the rfl and is vital to our future one is neither of those things.
I dont think tm is a better coach because hes an aussie i think hes a better coach because he is better. The sentimentality of where kear comes from is irrelevant for us picking a coach.
It would be just as easy for me to say that you are looking at kear through rose tinted glasses and you havent demonstrated anyway how kear will be an improvement as ocach other than he's a local lad, mark astons a cas lad but i dont think he is upto the job either. If we are going to bring a cas lad into our coaching set up i would like to see anderson being made our assistant with a view to being the head coach if he proves himself.
Who would be the 'fair share of cronies' tm has brought in?
Not every academy player makes it with there local side, and thats true for every team in the competition, we have emmit for instance who has been great for us, does that mean the saints coach who let him go is a poor one. As i understand it watts was let go becuase him and westy were as thick as thieves and even though it was more down to westy we let watts go to try and keep westy on the straight and narrow, which at the time imo opinion was a good decision (with no benefit of hindsight). Equally i've heard plenty of stories of kear leaving good kids in the reserves and playing overseas players instead.
At the end of the day some players will respond to different coaches differently, ferres has developed far more under tm than he did under kear, while grix has become much better at hudds.
I dont think when kear finished 5th he had less resources, i think he had more he had the likes of brough, drew, rooney, leo latu, obst in key positions and much more depth.
I dont think we can afford to have jk for 2 or 3 years as if we have 2 or 3 poor years we wont get a franchise, we have consistantly finished mid table in the last 3 years (when tm had the chance to build a good team as apposed to the ones thrown together from the scraps the other clubs left us with in 2006 and 2008).
11th maybe only one off bottom but that alot more than most coaches of promoted teams have managed and he was only 1 point of 10th (and only 3 behind 8th) which considering tm inherited someone elses team and had to use 2 halfbacks that werent up to the job for much of the season.
I've no doubt that you are TM's biggest fan, or you actually are TM under a sudoname. Again you can't see the wood for the trees.
TM has had to work with a team that he didn't put together!!.....isn't that the same for every coach?? Especially, as I've clearly said....in the first 2 or 3 seasons. Or when Kear was at Hull (as you refer to) do you think he started out with 26 new faces of his choice there? or the same at Wakey from which he has avchieved a top 5...incidentally higher than TM has ever done.
So give JK credit for putting together a team with the likes of those named above that got them the 5th spot.
Great justification of how TM is a better coach......
pyeman wrote:
I dont think tm is a better coach because hes an aussie i think hes a better coach because he is better.
....I now clearly understand what makes him better.
So bringing all of this together, in terms of coaching.
1) JK has put Wakey into a higher finishing league position than TM ever has with Cas. 2) JK has avoided relegation, with a similar budget and in similar circumstances...TM has not, 3) JK is higher qualified in coaching than TM. 4) JK has more coaching experience than TM, 5) JK has taken a team to win a CC...TM has not, 6) JK has taken a team to a CC final within 1 year of being in charge of the team...TM hasn't been beyond a qtr final.
The above are facts, not rose tints...not opinions!! Clearly everything is stacked against JK isn't it??
As for the local aspect of JK. We are a community driven club, on the pitch, off the pitch, in the club shop, local charities....everything!! Hence if there is a local coach, with the passion, experience, qualifications, track record, and Cas running through his veins....he gets my vote every time!!
I've no doubt that you are TM's biggest fan, or you actually are TM under a sudoname. Again you can't see the wood for the trees.
TM has had to work with a team that he didn't put together!!.....isn't that the same for every coach?? Especially, as I've clearly said....in the first 2 or 3 seasons. Or when Kear was at Hull (as you refer to) do you think he started out with 26 new faces of his choice there? or the same at Wakey from which he has avchieved a top 5...incidentally higher than TM has ever done.
So give JK credit for putting together a team with the likes of those named above that got them the 5th spot.
Great justification of how TM is a better coach..........I now clearly understand what makes him better.
So bringing all of this together, in terms of coaching.
1) JK has put Wakey into a higher finishing league position than TM ever has with Cas. 2) JK has avoided relegation, with a similar budget and in similar circumstances...TM has not, 3) JK is higher qualified in coaching than TM. 4) JK has more coaching experience than TM, 5) JK has taken a team to win a CC...TM has not, 6) JK has taken a team to a CC final within 1 year of being in charge of the team...TM hasn't been beyond a qtr final.
The above are facts, not rose tints...not opinions!! Clearly everything is stacked against JK isn't it??
As for the local aspect of JK. We are a community driven club, on the pitch, off the pitch, in the club shop, local charities....everything!! Hence if there is a local coach, with the passion, experience, qualifications, track record, and Cas running through his veins....he gets my vote every time!!
It would be just as easy to say you are kears no 1 fan and look at everything he does through rose tinted glasses.
By the time tm took over our team most of our recruitment was done and there was very little off season left, most coaches dont have to go through this when they take over another club, by the time tm took over all the quality players had long since been signed up, again not something most coaches have to go through. if it suits your argument you can continue to ignore the pretty unique circumstances tm had when he took over. by the time kear got wakey to 5th he had been there for 4 seasons the team he was playing with was the team he had built. We can all cherry pick 'facts' to suit our agendas and skip out the bits you dont want to answer (like tm bringing plenty of cronies, who are they i asked) shaun mcrea has more coaching experience than kear but i wouldnt want him either. Older does not always equal wiser. And how many overseas players has kear used to achieve what he has. And wakey have been in the play offs once in all the time kear has been in charge, we will go into the play offs for the 2nd time this year after narrowly missing out last year (when wakey finished 11th) despite tm having one less year in sl than kear. kear has had many more chances in the cup than tm has. The point you keep missing is that tm has had to rebuild this club from its lowest ebb and has made us into regular play off contenders, with a minimum no. of overseas players and a team packed with local talent. Kear has a had one good season with wakey and alot of poor ones. Why dont you ask the wakefield and hull fans if they want kear to coach there team the ones who watch his teams week in week week out and dont have much good to say about him as a coach.
It would be just as easy to say you are kears no 1 fan and look at everything he does through rose tinted glasses.
....please note the difference between the facts that I state, compared to the 'opinions' that you give.
pyeman wrote:
By the time tm took over our team most of our recruitment was done and there was very little off season left, most coaches dont have to go through this when they take over another club, by the time tm took over all the quality players had long since been signed up, again not something most coaches have to go through. if it suits your argument you can continue to ignore the pretty unique circumstances tm had when he took over.
...sorry but there is nothing unique about that!! Many coaches get sacked mid season, and the incoming coach is expected to turn things around. TM is credited with being our coach since 2005. Yet it is only this year that we are getting results.....and may I add results coming through from youngster primed by others, not TM!
pyeman wrote:
by the time kear got wakey to 5th he had been there for 4 seasons the team he was playing with was the team he had built.
....good well done JK, with Wakey collapsing financially on an almost yearly basis due to others...well done JK!!
pyeman wrote:
We can all cherry pick 'facts' to suit our agendas and skip out the bits you dont want to answer (like tm bringing plenty of cronies, who are they i asked)
....facts about the achievements a coach has made far out weigh matters such as cronies. The above 6 facts that I point out aren't made up cherries, they are real. We are still talking about coaching ability aren't we?? However I will humour you anyway. Shall we start with Goldie, Sherwin, Korki, faumina, glassie....maybe even Gutts aswell, although he was past it when he arrived with us.
pyeman wrote:
shaun mcrea has more coaching experience than kear but i wouldnt want him either. Older does not always equal wiser. And how many overseas players has kear used to achieve what he has. And wakey have been in the play offs once in all the time kear has been in charge, we will go into the play offs for the 2nd time this year after narrowly missing out last year (when wakey finished 11th) despite tm having one less year in sl than kear. kear has had many more chances in the cup than tm has. The point you keep missing is that tm has had to rebuild this club from its lowest ebb and has made us into regular play off contenders, with a minimum no. of overseas players and a team packed with local talent. Kear has a had one good season with wakey and alot of poor ones. Why dont you ask the wakefield and hull fans if they want kear to coach there team the ones who watch his teams week in week week out and dont have much good to say about him as a coach.
.....Lets not get carried away with TM's fan club either. After all he was very nearly linched at the club the other year, and that wasn't because the rugby was too entertaining, or defensive for the fans. It was plain straight forward dull, predictable and poorly drilled even in terms of basics. He was actually at the helm prior to and during one of our lowest points in the club's history. It's alright saying 1pt would have taken us to 10th etc. If's, buts, should've, aren't worth diddley squat in this game. Results are what matters, and our result that year was 11th and relegation.
At present he is fortunate that the region (Schools included) have an excellent crop of players coming through. This is very well documented and supported in terms of Cas High's results alone over recent years. Those who bring them through the academy, etc are the ones who deserve the praise. Lets then hope that the 1st team coach doesn't coach the natural skills out of them afterwards.
....please note the difference between the facts that I state, compared to the 'opinions' that you give.
...sorry but there is nothing unique about that!! Many coaches get sacked mid season, and the incoming coach is expected to turn things around. TM is credited with being our coach since 2005. Yet it is only this year that we are getting results.....and may I add results coming through from youngster primed by others, not TM!
How many coaches have to to take over a team that they have no imput in two months before the start of the season when the team has laready been massivley handicapped due to the promoted team? examples please. We've been getting results for the last 3 seasons (3 seasons where we have done better than any of kears seasons at wakey bar 1). I do love the old chestnut spouted by some that tm has nothing to do with young players development that they all just magically appear good enough for the first team. I've no doubt you will go around praising kear for howarth, marionos etc development even though they came from other clubs academies.
....good well done JK, with Wakey collapsing financially on an almost yearly basis due to others...well done JK!!
wakeys financial difficulties began after kears 2009 squad was assembled.
....facts about the achievements a coach has made far out weigh matters such as cronies. The above 6 facts that I point out aren't made up cherries, they are real. We are still talking about coaching ability aren't we?? However I will humour you anyway. Shall we start with Goldie, Sherwin, Korki, faumina, glassie....maybe even Gutts aswell, although he was past it when he arrived with us.
Ah your definition of tm bringing in loads of cronies i that he has played overseas players you dont like, goldie and guttenbiel where signed before tm came in, what did glassie do wrong? he did a job as a cheap squad player in a lower league to help us get promoted. faumiuna was a gamble that failed something that happens to all coaches (hows j smith working out for kear this year?)sherwin had won an nrl grand final at hb and was the sort of pedigree of player we were after it didnt work out due to sherwin getting injured all the time, we could sign lockyer but it wouldnt make a differance if he is picks up injuries, there are only so many quality hb's out there and not everyone of them works out when they come here from the nrl, some do fantastically like chase (let me guess his signing was nothing to do with matterson and it was all down to someone else?). Matterson has signed two half backs in brough and chase that were squad players and now they are two of the best hb's in the league. As for korki, is this the same korki that john kear has signed, so its ok for kear to sign him but not tm?
.....Lets not get carried away with TM's fan club either. After all he was very nearly linched at the club the other year, and that wasn't because the rugby was too entertaining, or defensive for the fans. It was plain straight forward dull, predictable and poorly drilled even in terms of basics. He was actually at the helm prior to and during one of our lowest points in the club's history. It's alright saying 1pt would have taken us to 10th etc. If's, buts, should've, aren't worth diddley squat in this game. Results are what matters, and our result that year was 11th and relegation.
A vocal minority wanted matterson out most fans with any sense didnt. True results are what matter but are you really saying that if dyer would have taken that kick and we went on to win the game tm would be a better coach and kear would be a worse one?
At present he is fortunate that the region (Schools included) have an excellent crop of players coming through. This is very well documented and supported in terms of Cas High's results alone over recent years. Those who bring them through the academy, etc are the ones who deserve the praise. Lets then hope that the 1st team coach doesn't coach the natural skills out of them afterwards.
Yes its a tm's good luck that he has brought so many youngsters through and they have turned into great players, nothing at all to do with him coaching them and getting them signed up. You think good young players come into the team and are successful purely by accident, no it comes from having a good head coach willing to teach them and having the bottle to play them, unlike kear who will sign aussies over kids whenever he has the choice.The fact that you will give no credit to tm for bringing more kids through than any cas coach in a long time makes me realize theres no chance of having a reasonable discussion with you.
