Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 1:56 pm  

majorhound wrote:

Rubbish. The anti EU feeling in the UK is almost entirely the result of 30 years of anti EU stories in the Mail, Sun Express etc. Some of them have admitted telling lies.
We can more or less do as we like within reason, and have done. The reason Cameron couldn't get a better deal out of them in 2015 is that we already had a better deal than the rest.
Those behind the out campaign are those who want to impose draconic anti labour laws on us, or who want free unfettered power. Murdoch, James Dyson, Hannan, that's why they need to be free of the ECJ. Because they want to be able to do what they like. Murdoch and his cronies already control the Tory party, and once we're out, the hammer will come down, and there'll be no going back. Certainly not under the terms we have now anyway.
The chocolate teapot Cameron should have insisted on a 60% clause in the referendum rules. He didn't because he daren't.
Look at those who are currently slagging off the Lords saying it needs reform. The same people, Rees Mogg, Bone, Davies, and Hannon who opposed Lords reform under the coalition. These people will do anything, say anything, and bend any law or rule to get their way. It's THAT important to them. They want us out so that they can oppress the rest of us, with no one to gainsay them.

Oh we go again...the electorate were too stupid to decide for themselves. You really can't accept you lost, can you? That the majority of the electorate disagreed with you. Can't see past it.

The left and/or Remain isn't short of media support. You've been just as influenced by Remain politicians and media...the Indy, Guardian, Mirror, Observer, BBC and Channel 4. Even the Times supported Remain. And that's all before we take into account the enormous domination of the left on social media. Actually from your posts I'd say you've been brainwashed by the far left in a big way but that's another story.

Fact is, you simply can't accept that 17.4 million people (more than have voted for anything in the UK, ever) simply didn't want to be in the EU anymore; didn't like some of its laws and the direction it's heading in. Perhaps they liked the idea of a trading bloc, but didn't like the pace and volume of the numbers coming in, the speed at which their communities were changing, and when they complained they were labelled racist. Perhaps some felt their wages being squeezed (proven at lower levels). Perhaps others didn't want laws being handed down from Brussels by unelected, unknown and unremovable bureaucrats. Perhaps others didn't like the blatant protectionism of the Customs Union. Perhaps other were dismayed at how the EU has handled a number of crises down the years, up to and including the immigration/refugee crisis. Perhaps others looked 10, 20, 50 years ahead and didn't like where EU is heading.

You probably skimmed over all of that as your brain immediately subconsciously shouted "racist!" or "Nazi!" or "gammon!" or something.

As for your 'draconian anti-labour laws' - you do realise EU law (including employment law) is already enshrined in UK law, or will be via the Withdrawal Act (ignore the Scots)? You do also realise the UK is in fact a world leader in employee protections, and leads the way ahead of the EU in many cases? In reality multinationals love the EU for its cheap labour and open borders offering tariff-free trade and supply chains. What you're saying is absolute bollox with zero basis in fact.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 2:07 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh we go again...the electorate were too stupid to decide for themselves. You really can't accept you lost, can you? That the majority of the electorate disagreed with you. Can't see past it.

The left and/or Remain isn't short of media support. You've been just as influenced by Remain politicians and media...the Indy, Guardian, Mirror, Observer, BBC and Channel 4. Even the Times supported Remain. And that's all before we take into account the enormous domination of the left on social media. Actually from your posts I'd say you've been brainwashed by the far left in a big way but that's another story.

Fact is, you simply can't accept that 17.4 million people (more than have voted for anything in the UK, ever) simply didn't want to be in the EU anymore; didn't like some of its laws and the direction it's heading in. Perhaps they liked the idea of a trading bloc, but didn't like the pace and volume of the numbers coming in, the speed at which their communities were changing, and when they complained they were labelled racist. Perhaps some felt their wages being squeezed (proven at lower levels). Perhaps others didn't want laws being handed down from Brussels by unelected, unknown and unremovable bureaucrats. Perhaps others didn't like the blatant protectionism of the Customs Union. Perhaps other were dismayed at how the EU has handled a number of crises down the years, up to and including the immigration/refugee crisis. Perhaps others looked 10, 20, 50 years ahead and didn't like where EU is heading.

You probably skimmed over all of that as your brain immediately subconsciously shouted "racist!" or "Nazi!" or "gammon!" or something.

As for your 'draconian anti-labour laws' - you do realise EU law (including employment law) is already enshrined in UK law, or will be via the Withdrawal Act (ignore the Scots)? You do also realise the UK is in fact a world leader in employee protections, and leads the way ahead of the EU in many cases? In reality multinationals love the EU for its cheap labour and open borders offering tariff-free trade and supply chains. What you're saying is absolute bollox with zero basis in fact.

Just to take up your point on "not knowing what you/we were voting for".
Clearly nobody knew quite what we were voting for.
18 months down the line and the 12 members of the cabinet cant agree the best way to solve the "customs union issue".
So, which option did we all vote for ? I'm happy to admit that I din't know and if you knew, you must have one hell of a good crystal ball.
There were some "ideals" spelled out by Farage & Co but, they were ideals and many of his ideas simply aren't workable, let alone acceptable to the current government or Parliament and we'll just ignore Ireland, after all, it didn't get much of a mention during the campaign.
You may have known what you wanted and you may have known what you were promised but, we all know that these are 2 very different things.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 2:41 pm  

What if I voted to give 350 million quid a week to the NHS?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 3:22 pm  

bren2k wrote:

What if I voted to give 350 million quid a week to the NHS?

Or, end free movement, which may not quite happen, depending on the "customs union" that we actually have (if the Cabinet can make their minds up AND sell their idea to the EU).

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 4:32 pm  

bren2k wrote:

What if I voted to give 350 million quid a week to the NHS?

Hope you have a healthy bank balance, because bumbling Boris isn't giving it to them after he sucked everyone into believing he would to get your vote.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 5:26 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh we go again...the electorate were too stupid to decide for themselves. You really can't accept you lost, can you? That the majority of the electorate disagreed with you. Can't see past it.

The left and/or Remain isn't short of media support. You've been just as influenced by Remain politicians and media...the Indy, Guardian, Mirror, Observer, BBC and Channel 4. Even the Times supported Remain. And that's all before we take into account the enormous domination of the left on social media. Actually from your posts I'd say you've been brainwashed by the far left in a big way but that's another story.

Fact is, you simply can't accept that 17.4 million people (more than have voted for anything in the UK, ever) simply didn't want to be in the EU anymore; didn't like some of its laws and the direction it's heading in. Perhaps they liked the idea of a trading bloc, but didn't like the pace and volume of the numbers coming in, the speed at which their communities were changing, and when they complained they were labelled racist. Perhaps some felt their wages being squeezed (proven at lower levels). Perhaps others didn't want laws being handed down from Brussels by unelected, unknown and unremovable bureaucrats. Perhaps others didn't like the blatant protectionism of the Customs Union. Perhaps other were dismayed at how the EU has handled a number of crises down the years, up to and including the immigration/refugee crisis. Perhaps others looked 10, 20, 50 years ahead and didn't like where EU is heading.

You probably skimmed over all of that as your brain immediately subconsciously shouted "racist!" or "Nazi!" or "gammon!" or something.

As for your 'draconian anti-labour laws' - you do realise EU law (including employment law) is already enshrined in UK law, or will be via the Withdrawal Act (ignore the Scots)? You do also realise the UK is in fact a world leader in employee protections, and leads the way ahead of the EU in many cases? In reality multinationals love the EU for its cheap labour and open borders offering tariff-free trade and supply chains. What you're saying is absolute bollox with zero basis in fact.

What I've been influenced by is that this country was on its backside in the 60's "the sick man of Europe" and now it's (was) one of the most prosperous countries in the world.
Then of course there's the fact that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for over 70 years. Between 1870 and 1945 Alsace Lorraine changed hands four times!
Then there's the peace in NI partly made possible because both parties to the Good Friday agreement were EU members, and thus differences could easily be settled.
As for employment law. What's to stop a UK government from changing the law the moment we come out of the EU. James Dyson has made it clear that that's one of his aims.
To take such an irrevocable stop on such a small majority really doesn't make sense. So 17.4m voted to come out. Another 16m voted to stay, are their views to be totally ignored. What if some of those who voted leave changed their minds. What about all those who didn't vote? What about all those who weren't qualified (by age) to vote and are now, they've made it abundantly clear where they stand. A 60% majority on a decision like this should have been mandatory.
I don't think the electorate is stupid, I think they've been misled by the likes of Boris Johnson, who's admitted making anti EU stories up when he was a journo on the Telegraph. Kelvin Mckenzie who is a proven liar (Hillsborough) and Paul Dacre who is cracked on the subject.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 5:26 pm  

Cronus wrote:

Oh we go again...the electorate were too stupid to decide for themselves. You really can't accept you lost, can you? That the majority of the electorate disagreed with you. Can't see past it.

The left and/or Remain isn't short of media support. You've been just as influenced by Remain politicians and media...the Indy, Guardian, Mirror, Observer, BBC and Channel 4. Even the Times supported Remain. And that's all before we take into account the enormous domination of the left on social media. Actually from your posts I'd say you've been brainwashed by the far left in a big way but that's another story.

Fact is, you simply can't accept that 17.4 million people (more than have voted for anything in the UK, ever) simply didn't want to be in the EU anymore; didn't like some of its laws and the direction it's heading in. Perhaps they liked the idea of a trading bloc, but didn't like the pace and volume of the numbers coming in, the speed at which their communities were changing, and when they complained they were labelled racist. Perhaps some felt their wages being squeezed (proven at lower levels). Perhaps others didn't want laws being handed down from Brussels by unelected, unknown and unremovable bureaucrats. Perhaps others didn't like the blatant protectionism of the Customs Union. Perhaps other were dismayed at how the EU has handled a number of crises down the years, up to and including the immigration/refugee crisis. Perhaps others looked 10, 20, 50 years ahead and didn't like where EU is heading.

You probably skimmed over all of that as your brain immediately subconsciously shouted "racist!" or "Nazi!" or "gammon!" or something.

As for your 'draconian anti-labour laws' - you do realise EU law (including employment law) is already enshrined in UK law, or will be via the Withdrawal Act (ignore the Scots)? You do also realise the UK is in fact a world leader in employee protections, and leads the way ahead of the EU in many cases? In reality multinationals love the EU for its cheap labour and open borders offering tariff-free trade and supply chains. What you're saying is absolute bollox with zero basis in fact.

What I've been influenced by is that this country was on its backside in the 60's "the sick man of Europe" and now it's (was) one of the most prosperous countries in the world.
Then of course there's the fact that the EU has kept the peace in Europe for over 70 years. Between 1870 and 1945 Alsace Lorraine changed hands for times!
Then there's the peace in NI partly made possible because both parties to the Good Friday agreement were EU members, and thus differences could easily be settled.
As for employment law. What's to stop a UK government from changing the law the moment we come out of the EU. James Dyson has made it clear that that's one of his aims.
To take such an irrevocable stop on such a small majority really doesn't make sense. So 17.4m voted to come out. Another 16m voted to stay, are their views to be totally ignored. What if they've changed their minds. What about all those who didn't vote? What about all those who weren't qualified (by age) to vote and are now, they've made it abundantly clear where they stand. A 60% majority on a decision like this should have been mandatory.
I don't think the electorate is stupid, I think they've been misled by the likes of Boris Johnson, who's admitted making anti EU stories up when he was a journo on the Telegraph. Kelvin Mckenzie who is a proven liar (Hillsborough) and Paul Dacre who is cracked on the subject.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 6:02 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Just to take up your point on "not knowing what you/we were voting for".
Clearly nobody knew quite what we were voting for.
18 months down the line and the 12 members of the cabinet cant agree the best way to solve the "customs union issue".
So, which option did we all vote for ? I'm happy to admit that I din't know and if you knew, you must have one hell of a good crystal ball.
There were some "ideals" spelled out by Farage & Co but, they were ideals and many of his ideas simply aren't workable, let alone acceptable to the current government or Parliament and we'll just ignore Ireland, after all, it didn't get much of a mention during the campaign.
You may have known what you wanted and you may have known what you were promised but, we all know that these are 2 very different things.

I voted to leave. Simple as that.

The detail was always going to be thrashed out later. I'd have thought that was always obvious. Once all the bluster is over the deal will most likely be mostly mutually beneficial, although of course it won't be as good as full EU membership. A price worth paying.

When I vote a government in I don't then demand another election if the detail of their governance isn't precisely what I personally expected.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 6:32 pm  

bren2k wrote:

What if I voted to give 350 million quid a week to the NHS?

Why would you do that?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed May 16, 2018 7:04 pm  

Cronus wrote:

I voted to leave. Simple as that.

The detail was always going to be thrashed out later. I'd have thought that was always obvious. Once all the bluster is over the deal will most likely be mostly mutually beneficial, although of course it won't be as good as full EU membership. A price worth paying.

When I vote a government in I don't then demand another election if the detail of their governance isn't precisely what I personally expected.

So, are you happy to remain in a customs union or, would this, as some commentators suggest, not actually mean "leaving" or, are you still happy to leave everything to the group of elected representative to find "the best" deal for the country ?

Regarding a government nod adhering to policy or "if the detail of their governance isn't precisely what I personally expected".
I would suggest that you may be incorrect, as, you will always, at least in theory, have the chance to vote said government "out" when the next election comes around.
This particular option isnt applicable with Brexit, unless there is a second referendum.
Maybe this would be the right thing for the country, as we would actually know what we were voting for ?