Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:25 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

And how many of the commonwealth countries would be on "our side".
After Britain raped and plundered these countries it's personal gain, just how many of them want to give further help.

Ever heard of the term 'mutually beneficial'? They may well see a great opportunity to trade with a major world economy once the EU Customs Blockade has dropped.

Have a look at the tariffs the EU slapped on imported oranges for an example of what happens when outsiders get a bit too competitive. South Africa was the main target of that particular act of EU protectionism - a Commonwealth nation, no less.

You really need to move with the times.

Britannia no longer rules the waves and most of the commonwealth nations are more than happy to "self govern" probably glad to see the back of being part of "the empire".

The only ones who bring up 'The British Empire' are those who have run out of arguments. It should be another internet law alongside Godwin's.

God Save The Queen.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:18 am  

Cronus wrote:

Ever heard of the term 'mutually beneficial'? They may well see a great opportunity to trade with a major world economy once the EU Customs Blockade has dropped.

Have a look at the tariffs the EU slapped on imported oranges for an example of what happens when outsiders get a bit too competitive. South Africa was the main target of that particular act of EU protectionism - a Commonwealth nation, no less.

The only ones who bring up 'The British Empire' are those who have run out of arguments. It should be another internet law alongside Godwin's.

God Save The Queen.

I'll ignore the second part of your post.

However, there remains one hell of a large elephant in the room and it's been there from day 1 of the whole Brexit process.
Although there may well be pockets of produce / goods that become cheaper, once we are away from the shackles of the EU, and there will certainly be benefits for food items and clothing etc.
The issue arises where the UK tries to obtain certain products /services and tariff free rates and then use these to their advantage when trying to sell goods / services back into the EU (our largest export market).
The EU will, as they always have, take steps to protect "their own" and IF the UK was to gain substantial advantage, we would find new tariffs applied to said products preventing the UK form undercutting the EU competitors.

Also, the incumbent suppliers of the products that we are looking to offer, would also take steps to protect their market.

Of course there may be opportunities for innovative new products but, surely, those opportunities were already available to us.

Some of the older generation, many of whom voted "leave", remind us that "back in the day", the world wanted to buy British and that our products were the best in the world (which I can agree with). However, the rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed those standards.

I'm sorry but, I believe that many of the new opportunities that have been sold to the populous are over inflated dreams and not the genuine article but, if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true.

The economic holes in the original Brexit argument are there now for all to see and it becomes ever clearer that, this (Brexit) was more to do with immigration than it ever was about prosperity.

Little Englanders won the day, unless there is a second referendum

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:47 am  

wrencat1873 wrote: I'll ignore the second part of your post. Why? It's patently true. No-one one here has expressed a yearning for the Empire days. The only person to dredge it up is you and other Remainers. Extricating ourselves from the shackles of the EU is hardly nostalgia for Empire, it's more a lucky escape. However, there remains one hell of a large elephant in the room and it's been there from day 1 of the whole Brexit process. Although there may well be pockets of produce / goods that become cheaper, once we are away from the shackles of the EU, and there will certainly be benefits for food items and clothing etc. The issue arises where the UK tries to obtain certain products /services and tariff free rates and then use these to their advantage when trying to sell goods / services back into the EU (our largest export market). The EU will, as they always have, take steps to protect "their own" and IF the UK was to gain substantial advantage, we would find new tariffs applied to said products preventing the UK form undercutting the EU competitors. Also, the incumbent suppliers of the products that we are looking to offer, would also take steps to protect their market. Of course there may be opportunities for innovative new products but, surely, those opportunities were already available to us. Some of the older generation, many of whom voted "leave", remind us that "back in the day", the world wanted to buy British and that our products were the best in the world (which I can agree with). However, the rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed those standards. I'm sorry but, I believe that many of the new opportunities that have been sold to the populous are over inflated dreams and not the genuine article but, if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true. The economic holes in the original Brexit argument are there now for all to see and it becomes ever clearer that, this (Brexit) was more to do with immigration than it ever was about prosperity. Which is all well and good, but the question posed concerned trade between the UK and Commonwealth nations. We all know there will be adjustments to be made. Yes, it's likely there will be some tariffs between the EU and UK. I think it's unlikely any tariffs will be particularly damaging to either side in part due to our enormous economic integration with EU nations and our mutual desire for healthy trade. Furthermore, any punitive tariffs the EU puts in place, we can match. The fact is, in reality every nation in the EU seeks the best for their economy and their population. That means working together despite the EU's history of protectionism. But I see we're making progress. It may have only been part of the reason for the leave vote, but you finally understand the depth of feeling against uncontrolled mass immigration, and that to remove ourselves from that ridiculous ideal it's necessary to take a short-term economic hit. That said, according to Bloomberg, that hit isn't as any near bad as many on the Remainer side are professing, certainly in terms of the Brexit bill. Little Englanders won the day, unless there is a second referendum

wrencat1873 wrote: I'll ignore the second part of your post. Why? It's patently true. No-one one here has expressed a yearning for the Empire days. The only person to dredge it up is you and other Remainers. Extricating ourselves from the shackles of the EU is hardly nostalgia for Empire, it's more a lucky escape. However, there remains one hell of a large elephant in the room and it's been there from day 1 of the whole Brexit process. Although there may well be pockets of produce / goods that become cheaper, once we are away from the shackles of the EU, and there will certainly be benefits for food items and clothing etc. The issue arises where the UK tries to obtain certain products /services and tariff free rates and then use these to their advantage when trying to sell goods / services back into the EU (our largest export market). The EU will, as they always have, take steps to protect "their own" and IF the UK was to gain substantial advantage, we would find new tariffs applied to said products preventing the UK form undercutting the EU competitors. Also, the incumbent suppliers of the products that we are looking to offer, would also take steps to protect their market. Of course there may be opportunities for innovative new products but, surely, those opportunities were already available to us. Some of the older generation, many of whom voted "leave", remind us that "back in the day", the world wanted to buy British and that our products were the best in the world (which I can agree with). However, the rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed those standards. I'm sorry but, I believe that many of the new opportunities that have been sold to the populous are over inflated dreams and not the genuine article but, if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true. The economic holes in the original Brexit argument are there now for all to see and it becomes ever clearer that, this (Brexit) was more to do with immigration than it ever was about prosperity. Which is all well and good, but the question posed concerned trade between the UK and Commonwealth nations. We all know there will be adjustments to be made. Yes, it's likely there will be some tariffs between the EU and UK. I think it's unlikely any tariffs will be particularly damaging to either side in part due to our enormous economic integration with EU nations and our mutual desire for healthy trade. Furthermore, any punitive tariffs the EU puts in place, we can match. The fact is, in reality every nation in the EU seeks the best for their economy and their population. That means working together despite the EU's history of protectionism. But I see we're making progress. It may have only been part of the reason for the leave vote, but you finally understand the depth of feeling against uncontrolled mass immigration, and that to remove ourselves from that ridiculous ideal it's necessary to take a short-term economic hit. That said, according to Bloomberg, that hit isn't as any near bad as many on the Remainer side are professing, certainly in terms of the Brexit bill. Little Englanders won the day, unless there is a second referendum

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:15 am  

Cronus wrote: Why? It's patently true. No-one one here has expressed a yearning for the Empire days. The only person to dredge it up is you and other Remainers. Extricating ourselves from the shackles of the EU is hardly nostalgia for Empire, it's more a lucky escape. Which is all well and good, but the question posed concerned trade between the UK and Commonwealth nations. We all know there will be adjustments to be made. Yes, it's likely there will be some tariffs between the EU and UK. I think it's unlikely any tariffs will be particularly damaging to either side in part due to our enormous economic integration with EU nations and our mutual desire for healthy trade. Furthermore, any punitive tariffs the EU puts in place, we can match. The fact is, in reality every nation in the EU seeks the best for their economy and their population. That means working together despite the EU's history of protectionism. But I see we're making progress. It may have only been part of the reason for the leave vote, but you finally understand the depth of feeling against uncontrolled mass immigration, and that to remove ourselves from that ridiculous ideal it's necessary to take a short-term economic hit. That said, according to Bloomberg, that hit isn't as any near bad as many on the Remainer side are professing, certainly in terms of the Brexit bill. The interesting aspect here is the constant moving of the goal posts by the "vote leave" brigade. You've gone from us being better off and having £350 million per week for the NHS and having no "divorce bill", to admitting that we will be slightly worse off financially and accepting that there will indeed be a divorce bill. There was never any doubt that the mass migration issue needed dealing with and still does and you would do well to find any comment to the contrary from me. As perhaps a more outward looking person that many of the "leave" mob, I dont have any real issue with being part of The EU. Although it makes great headlines in the Daily Mail, being part of a larger group (the EU) should be seen as a positive. In the UK we already have local government and central government, which so many of the population have very little chance of changing and another layer on top of this isnt really a problem, unless you feel threatened by them. And whilst the freedom of movement is causing major issues at present, due to the economic inequalities between some of the member nations, we also lose our own right to move freely in the opposite direction and as with all these issues, things move in cycles and very few Brit's were complaining as "we" "invaded" parts of Spain. Anyway, clear a spot in your diary for the second referendum and be sure to choose wisely.

Cronus wrote: Why? It's patently true. No-one one here has expressed a yearning for the Empire days. The only person to dredge it up is you and other Remainers. Extricating ourselves from the shackles of the EU is hardly nostalgia for Empire, it's more a lucky escape. Which is all well and good, but the question posed concerned trade between the UK and Commonwealth nations. We all know there will be adjustments to be made. Yes, it's likely there will be some tariffs between the EU and UK. I think it's unlikely any tariffs will be particularly damaging to either side in part due to our enormous economic integration with EU nations and our mutual desire for healthy trade. Furthermore, any punitive tariffs the EU puts in place, we can match. The fact is, in reality every nation in the EU seeks the best for their economy and their population. That means working together despite the EU's history of protectionism. But I see we're making progress. It may have only been part of the reason for the leave vote, but you finally understand the depth of feeling against uncontrolled mass immigration, and that to remove ourselves from that ridiculous ideal it's necessary to take a short-term economic hit. That said, according to Bloomberg, that hit isn't as any near bad as many on the Remainer side are professing, certainly in terms of the Brexit bill. The interesting aspect here is the constant moving of the goal posts by the "vote leave" brigade. You've gone from us being better off and having £350 million per week for the NHS and having no "divorce bill", to admitting that we will be slightly worse off financially and accepting that there will indeed be a divorce bill. There was never any doubt that the mass migration issue needed dealing with and still does and you would do well to find any comment to the contrary from me. As perhaps a more outward looking person that many of the "leave" mob, I dont have any real issue with being part of The EU. Although it makes great headlines in the Daily Mail, being part of a larger group (the EU) should be seen as a positive. In the UK we already have local government and central government, which so many of the population have very little chance of changing and another layer on top of this isnt really a problem, unless you feel threatened by them. And whilst the freedom of movement is causing major issues at present, due to the economic inequalities between some of the member nations, we also lose our own right to move freely in the opposite direction and as with all these issues, things move in cycles and very few Brit's were complaining as "we" "invaded" parts of Spain. Anyway, clear a spot in your diary for the second referendum and be sure to choose wisely.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:15 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The interesting aspect here is the constant moving of the goal posts by the "vote leave" brigade.

You've gone from us being better off and having £350 million per week for the NHS and having no "divorce bill", to admitting that we will be slightly worse off financially and accepting that there will indeed be a divorce bill.

Nope, I've been saying the same thing since before the referendum. A short term hit for long term gain. There was always going to be divorce bill, what we've been landed with actually isn't too bad. Anyone with a brain could see that, but it wouldn't have made a good campaign leaflet.

BTW, the bus didn't say £350M directly into the NHS. But "if you keep saying it often enough, you may believe it to be true".

There was never any doubt that the mass migration issue needed dealing with and still does and you would do well to find any comment to the contrary from me.

As perhaps a more outward looking person that many of the "leave" mob, I dont have any real issue with being part of The EU.
Although it makes great headlines in the Daily Mail, being part of a larger group (the EU) should be seen as a positive.
In the UK we already have local government and central government, which so many of the population have very little chance of changing and another layer on top of this isnt really a problem, unless you feel threatened by them.

Another layer simply isn't necessary. Especially when those ultimately running the ship in Brussels are unelected and non-removable, don't listen and have an ideology they are determined to force on the rest of us.

You're right, the EU SHOULD be seen as a positive. Unfortunately the EU have cocked the whole thing up by choosing to force their ideals on an increasingly reluctant and wary Europe (actually that was the plan from the beginning). That's where it becomes a negative.

And whilst the freedom of movement is causing major issues at present, due to the economic inequalities between some of the member nations, we also lose our own right to move freely in the opposite direction and as with all these issues, things move in cycles and very few Brit's were complaining as "we" "invaded" parts of Spain.

At worst we might need to complete a visa application online. I doubt even that will happen. Reciprocal agreements will be put in place for travel. Working & living likewise.

FoM is causing major issues which will not go away any time soon. So is the migration crisis. If the rest of Europe are unwilling to do anything about it we're better off out of the whole mess.

Anyway, clear a spot in your diary for the second referendum and be sure to choose wisely.

Won't happen.

All this blustering about 'meaningful votes' and this idiotic customs union vote is meaningless rhetoric from politicians who can't accept defeat or are raising their profile. Any move to place us back under EU rules would see a backlash of biblical proportions.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:36 pm  

[quote="Cronus"

All this blustering about 'meaningful votes' and this idiotic customs union vote is meaningless rhetoric from politicians who can't accept defeat or are raising their profile. Any move to place us back under EU rules would see a backlash of biblical proportions. [/quote]

Never say never, it may depend on the final draft of the deal, which ultimately, may not be to the liking of either side (leave or remain) ?
It's very likely that everyone will say "this isnt what we voted for", and then what ?

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:06 am  

As much as I wanted to remain, in the interests of democracy, there should be no second vote.

Anyway, its far too much fun watching the conservatives make a mess of Brexit

Regards

King James

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:59 am  

Lebron James wrote:

As much as I wanted to remain, in the interests of democracy, there should be no second vote.

Anyway, its far too much fun watching the conservatives make a mess of Brexit

Regards

King James

yes, because Komrade Corbyn would just let Russia annex us! that would be so much better.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:04 am  

PCollinson1990 wrote:

yes, because Komrade Corbyn would just let Russia annex us! that would be so much better.

Who cares what Corbyn would do, he's not in power. The Conservatives are in power and they are making a phenomenal mess of something, which in all honesty, they probably never really wanted.

Re: Brexit Anyone? (2) : Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:38 am  

King Street Cat wrote:

Who cares what Corbyn would do, he's not in power. The Conservatives are in power and they are making a phenomenal mess of something, which in all honesty, they probably never really wanted.

they are making a "mes" how?

instead of socialist rhetoric, tell us what you would be doing differently...