Re: Grammar Schools : Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:48 pm  

headhunter wrote:

So what you're saying is you want to determine whether someone gets to become a toilet cleaner or an 'inventor' based on an arbitrary test at age 11.

That is the major flaw with grammars, the selection process is little more than pseudoscience, there is no accurate test that determines actual potential age 11. All you can do is apply poor proxies that everyone knows are heavily gamed, and then marvel at the entirely predictable self selecting bias in the results.

Re: Grammar Schools : Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:59 pm  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

That is the major flaw with grammars, the selection process is little more than pseudoscience, there is no accurate test that determines actual potential age 11. All you can do is apply poor proxies that everyone knows are heavily gamed, and then marvel at the entirely predictable self selecting bias in the results.

This. I'm a qualified teacher at secondary level. I don't know which kids are going to do/become what at 16, even 18 never mind 11.
You can guess, but you don't know. And you're proved wrong as often as youre proved right.

I'm also a coach, and this is true of sport as well. As it's all education, just a different type.

Re: Grammar Schools : Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:39 pm  

One lad I knew went to the "thicko" school at 11 because he failed the 11 plus. When the schools became comprehensive h blossomed and at 24 was a financial director of a very famous mail order catalogue.
Everyone develops at different rates and also develop skills and abilities.
Arbitrary cut off points at times do no one favours.

Re: Grammar Schools : Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:29 am  

Leaguefan wrote:

One lad I knew went to the "thicko" school at 11 because he failed the 11 plus. When the schools became comprehensive h blossomed and at 24 was a financial director of a very famous mail order catalogue.
Everyone develops at different rates and also develop skills and abilities.
Arbitrary cut off points at times do no one favours.

Unless you are a Tory government or Daily Mail reader, in which case it's the ideal way forward.

Re: Grammar Schools : Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:25 pm  

How many posters on here live in a current Grammar/Sec Mod area?
The idea that Grammars are for the "few" and Sec Mods for the "many" isn't the case any more and hasn't been for decades.
The Grammar/Sec Mod combined GCSE's results are far higher than Comprehensives. Most Comps can't get to the level of Sec Mod GCSE results. There's a Sec Mod near us that produces better results than almost all Comps in the UK except in Kent and Essex where they have selection by house price.
Listening to some politicians it's like a 1960/70s recording with the case for Comps as it was suggested way back then. It isn't like that now in Grammar Sec Mod areas.
BTW some may think this is a "posh" area but we have a Labour MP who this has reminded me I must ask what she thinks about our local secondary schools set up.

Re: Grammar Schools : Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:35 am  

Father Ted wrote:

How many posters on here live in a current Grammar/Sec Mod area?
The idea that Grammars are for the "few" and Sec Mods for the "many" isn't the case any more and hasn't been for decades.
The Grammar/Sec Mod combined GCSE's results are far higher than Comprehensives. Most Comps can't get to the level of Sec Mod GCSE results. There's a Sec Mod near us that produces better results than almost all Comps in the UK except in Kent and Essex where they have selection by house price.
Listening to some politicians it's like a 1960/70s recording with the case for Comps as it was suggested way back then. It isn't like that now in Grammar Sec Mod areas.
BTW some may think this is a "posh" area but we have a Labour MP who this has reminded me I must ask what she thinks about our local secondary schools set up.

And using the "free school meals" barometer, which seems to be the current measure of "quality" for the catchment area, what proportion of those attending these schools are in need of help with lunch.
Success for most kids comes from having a stable home, parents who want them to do well, a decent school and teachers, plus, some academic ability.
In better off areas, half of this criteria is a "given" but, in poorer areas the opposite is true.

If you have decent teachers and a willing group of kids, it doesn't matter what label you attach to the school, the results will be good and this is the main point.

Grammar schools are not needed, the whole thing is a "vote catcher" for the wanabe middle classes and it has rock all to do with improving "education for all".

It sounds as though there may be some issues when this "bill" reaches the House of Lords anyway.
They are not happy that the new policy has just come out of the ether and perhaps some have seen straight through Teresa May's crude electioneering.

Re: Grammar Schools : Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:29 pm  

Don't know the free school meal ratio here but I'm sure there are areas with Comps that have similar to here.
This area of GS/Sec Mod leave Comp areas way behind by getting over 75% with 5 GCSE A-C and that was some time ago, it'll be higher than that now.
If your child is leaving Junior school, if this area is anything to go by, are far far better off in the Grammar/Sec Mod system than Comps.

Re: Grammar Schools : Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:20 pm  

Father Ted wrote:

Don't know the free school meal ratio here but I'm sure there are areas with Comps that have similar to here.
This area of GS/Sec Mod leave Comp areas way behind by getting over 75% with 5 GCSE A-C and that was some time ago, it'll be higher than that now.
If your child is leaving Junior school, if this area is anything to go by, are far far better off in the Grammar/Sec Mod system than Comps.

Is it actually a Grammar School or is it a comp or a private school that still has the Grammar School name in its title?

If it is a Grammar School then the difference is almost certainly the selective intake. They'll get the more academically suited kids in the first place, those with the pushier parents, very few kids from poor families and even fewer SEN kids. Plus of course whatever process they use to select which kids they want.

If it's a private school then of course they benefit from not having to stick to the curriculum, lower class sizes, a wider education and of course significantly higher funding per pupil. Along with having few poor and SEN kids.

Put the same intake and restrictions on Grammar Schools as those Comps have to deal with and they'd get the same results.

Of course it's the intake. It's the only difference between the 2 systems.

Re: Grammar Schools : Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:39 pm  

Our Grammars are all state funded. They are selected intake yet the Sec mods still out perform Comps in other areas. The combined Grammar/Sec Mod results are way above Comp areas anywhere.

Re: Grammar Schools : Wed Oct 26, 2016 3:24 pm  

Father Ted wrote:

Our Grammars are all state funded. They are selected intake yet the Sec mods still out perform Comps in other areas. The combined Grammar/Sec Mod results are way above Comp areas anywhere.

And this proves what? Pupils can learn facts and regurgitate them?
The thing that most educational systems fail to do is teach the ability to think, question and look at things from many perspectives.
The sheeple don't want this of course, because they are told they don't want it, but want crap and not interfere with the "natural order of things" which is why we have the anachronism of a monarchy.