FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Biased news reporting
::Off-topic discussion.
Ajw71 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1978No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 23 200619 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Dec 23 20:2714th Dec 19 14:13LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:14 pm  
JerryChicken wrote:
I don't see your relevance, WTF has it got to do with Tony Blair, the PM was Margaret Thatcher, the Government was a Conservative one, it was the decision of the MP's in the Commons at that moment in time as was the decision to invade Iraq at the time of Blairs government - you can't defend decisions in hindsight by attributing them to people who weren't even part of the decision making process.


And when I say "the decision of MP's in the Commons" I include MP's of all party's.

Just not the ones who weren't actually MP's at the time.


What proof of this is there?

"at any other time we would have left a tiny spec on the map to its fate and negotiated a hand over"
WIZEB 
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach12749
JoinedServiceReputation
Nov 23 200915 years39th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
4th Dec 24 20:4521st Nov 24 16:06LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
The Hamptons of East Yorkshire

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:33 pm  
sally cinnamon wrote:
This thing about Thatcher winning in 1983 because of the Falklands is a bit of a myth. There was no reason to believe at the time that a war would help reelection anyway - you would have thought that Churchill would have benefited from a khaki election, after winning WW2, but he got voted out in a landslide defeat by Attlee in 1945.

But also from a tactical point of view, fighting the Falklands war was a massive political risk for Thatcher. If we had lost she would almost certainly have had to resign and a lot of the advice she was receiving was that this was going to be a very difficult fight to win. The safe political option would have been to go for some 'diplomatic settlement' that accepted the Argentinan invasion, and Thatcher (rightly) was not prepared to accept that.

I am not a Thatcher lover by any means but you have to get the facts straight over why she won in 1983. It was basically the same reason she won a majority of over 100 in 1987, when there was no Falklands and no 'longest suicide note in history' Labour manifesto and no Michael Foot. It was because the opposition was split. The SDP-Liberal Alliance hoovered up close to a quarter of the electorates votes in those elections, because of first past the post they didn't get that many seats of course, but it meant they ate away the left/centre left vote. Meanwhile on the opposite side, Thatcher getting 42% or so was able to win landslides.


The Falklands campaign and victory was a helpful contributory factor to her election success as were several of the other points you have duly noted.
The 'Gang of Four' turncoats, Doctor Death, Woy Jenkins, Williams and Rodgers, most definitely did immense damage.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star3605No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 09 201212 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
20th May 16 14:5420th May 16 10:16LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leeds
Signature
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece
----------------------------------------------------------
Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork
----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken - The Blog
----------------------------------------------------------

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:39 pm  
Ajw71 wrote:
What proof of this is there?

"at any other time we would have left a tiny spec on the map to its fate and negotiated a hand over"


Proof ?

Its his opinion you idiot. :lol:
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach16271
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 12 200420 years73rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
23rd Nov 24 21:1723rd Nov 24 19:55LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
Challenge Cup winners 2009 2010 2012 2019
League Leaders 2011 2016

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:42 pm  
Big Graeme wrote:
Complete horseshit, at any other time we would have left a tiny spec on the map to its fate and negotiated a hand over, being well behind in the polls and looking like being ousted at the impending election was very much on her mind.


More myths: the earliest poll taken (7 April 1982) after the Falklands invasion (2 April) had the polls at: CON 31.5%, LAB 29.0%, SDP/LIB 37.0%.

So given that the Tories had a small lead over Labour at the time and were only behind the Alliance in the polls, why take such a political risk in fighting a war you have a high chance of losing?

It wasn't in early 1982 that Thatcher was well behind in the polls, it was in 1980. In December 1980 it was CON 32.0%, LAB 56.0%, LIB 11.0%. The big turning point in the polls, which shredded Labour, was the formation of the Alliance in early 1981. Labour dropped to the mid 30s after that.

During the next term, Thatcher was in more trouble in the polls in 1986 than she was in 1982, she was ten points down on Kinnock's Labour a year away from the 1987 election but still won 100 seat majority, there was no 'Falklands factor' then.

Remember as well that at this time the Labour party was scoring own goals over Militant and infighting between Bennites and those on the centre of the party which also played in Thatcher's favour.

Historic opinion poll data can be downloaded here: http://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/
Big Graeme wrote:
Complete horseshit, at any other time we would have left a tiny spec on the map to its fate and negotiated a hand over, being well behind in the polls and looking like being ousted at the impending election was very much on her mind.


More myths: the earliest poll taken (7 April 1982) after the Falklands invasion (2 April) had the polls at: CON 31.5%, LAB 29.0%, SDP/LIB 37.0%.

So given that the Tories had a small lead over Labour at the time and were only behind the Alliance in the polls, why take such a political risk in fighting a war you have a high chance of losing?

It wasn't in early 1982 that Thatcher was well behind in the polls, it was in 1980. In December 1980 it was CON 32.0%, LAB 56.0%, LIB 11.0%. The big turning point in the polls, which shredded Labour, was the formation of the Alliance in early 1981. Labour dropped to the mid 30s after that.

During the next term, Thatcher was in more trouble in the polls in 1986 than she was in 1982, she was ten points down on Kinnock's Labour a year away from the 1987 election but still won 100 seat majority, there was no 'Falklands factor' then.

Remember as well that at this time the Labour party was scoring own goals over Militant and infighting between Bennites and those on the centre of the party which also played in Thatcher's favour.

Historic opinion poll data can be downloaded here: http://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/
Ajw71 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1978No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 23 200619 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Dec 23 20:2714th Dec 19 14:13LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:46 pm  
JerryChicken wrote:
Proof ?

Its his opinion you idiot. :lol:


The way he said 'complete horseshit' I thought he might have some hard evidence to back up his wild assertions.

Not a very good opinion is it, as Tony Blair said he would have done the same, but as this is obviously far too difficult for your brain to comprehend maybe we should leave it there.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach16271
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 12 200420 years73rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
23rd Nov 24 21:1723rd Nov 24 19:55LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
Challenge Cup winners 2009 2010 2012 2019
League Leaders 2011 2016

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:52 pm  
WIZEB wrote:
The Falklands campaign and victory was a helpful contributory factor to her election success as were several of the other points you have duly noted.
The 'Gang of Four' turncoats, Doctor Death, Woy Jenkins, Williams and Rodgers, most definitely did immense damage.


Yes, after the war went well, it looked retrospectively like a good decision to go in and it portrayed Thatcher as a strong leader. Up till 1982 she didn't really have the "Iron Lady" image. After that she was a lot more confident and decisive and shaped her own Cabinet in her way with her own picks as well, whereas before the 83 election it was still Thatcher a bit isolated amongst Heathites.

Undoubtedly the swift outcome of the conflict helped Thatcher's image, but the key point is that before the conflict took place the advice she got was that it was going to be very difficult and there was a high chance of humiliation and failure to retake the islands. So to say Thatcher calculated on going to war for political reasons to help her win an election just doesn't wash because the chances of success were so ropey - a shrewd political calculator would have avoided the conflict. I am not a Thatcher lover by any means but you have to give her a fair trial and attack her for the right reasons.

Wars are very risky affairs for Prime Ministers. Tony Blair's reputation came out enhanced after Kosovo and Sierra Leone, because they were fairly swift affairs that achieved a desired outcome. But the Afghanistan and Iraq wars were disastrous for Blair politically because they dragged on, no WMDs were found in Iraq and Blair was exposed for not having an exit strategy. Blair should really have romped to another landslide in 2005 but his majority was cut substantially because trust had already been eroded over the Iraq affair.

Another point on wars, in 1991 just after John Major had taken over as PM Britain was at war with Iraq, Major was ahead in the polls just after that but it's difficult to see if it was a 'war bounce' because Major had not long since taken over from Thatcher and the Tories jumped ahead in the polls as soon as she left anyway! Nevertheless by June that year Labour were ten points up. So Major definitely did not benefit from a war effect in the 92 election, he was forced to call it whilst still about five points down, but Kinnock and Labour blew that one big time.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star3605No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 09 201212 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
20th May 16 14:5420th May 16 10:16LINK
Milestone Posts
2500
5000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Leeds
Signature
Someday everything is gonna be different, when I paint my masterpiece
----------------------------------------------------------
Online art gallery, selling original landscape artwork
----------------------------------------------------------
JerryChicken - The Blog
----------------------------------------------------------

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 2:59 pm  
Ajw71 wrote:
The way he said 'complete horseshit' I thought he might have some hard evidence to back up his wild assertions.

Not a very good opinion is it, as Tony Blair said he would have done the same, but as this is obviously far too difficult for your brain to comprehend maybe we should leave it there.


The opinion of one poster here is as valid as Tony Blairs opinion on something that he had no part of, I know that you were probably just very, very small, if born at all in 1982 but 15 seconds on Wiki is all the evidence that you'd need to gather before judging how the facts may dilute your comment somewhat.

If you had mentioned that the then labour leader Michael Foot, a life long pacifist and CND supporter had declared his support for Thatchers call to arms on the Falklands then you would have made a very strong point and valid counter argument, but as I say, you weren't born at that point so your innocence is forgiven.
Ajw71 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach1978No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Feb 23 200619 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
19th Dec 23 20:2714th Dec 19 14:13LINK
Milestone Posts
1000
2500
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:09 pm  
JerryChicken wrote:
The opinion of one poster here is as valid as Tony Blairs opinion on something that he had no part of


No because the poster specifically said 'at any other time we would have left a spec.....'

Well no, because Tony Blair has stated he would have done the same as Thatcher if he was in her shoes. So according to him (not me), if the Falklands had been invaded in say 2000, he would have done the same as Thatcher (ie, send a task force).

So it's likely not true to say 'at any other time we would have not fought the war'.
WIZEB 
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach12749
JoinedServiceReputation
Nov 23 200915 years39th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
4th Dec 24 20:4521st Nov 24 16:06LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
The Hamptons of East Yorkshire

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:09 pm  
Has a conscripted army ever beat a professional one in modern warfare?
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
In The Arms of 13 Angels26578
JoinedServiceReputation
Mar 08 200223 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
6th Jul 17 23:1930th Apr 17 15:32LINK
Milestone Posts
25000
30000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
On the set of NEDS...
Signature
Image


ebay's Rugby League Bargains ¦ Boost Your eBay Sales ¦ Recommended Amazon Stuff ¦ Get a Free Ink Cart!!! ¦ Quins RL T-Shirts, BRAND NEW DESIGNS

Re: Biased news reporting : Sat Dec 29, 2012 3:23 pm  
Ajw71 wrote:
No because the poster specifically said 'at any other time we would have left a spec.....'

Well no, because Tony Blair has stated he would have done the same as Thatcher if he was in her shoes. So according to him (not me), if the Falklands had been invaded in say 2000, he would have done the same as Thatcher (ie, send a task force).

So it's likely not true to say 'at any other time we would have not fought the war'.


You really can't handle Blair being the son of Thatcher politics wise can you.
Of course he would have done the same thing (and I took that to mean if he were PM at the time), they had the same core ideology.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 204 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to The Sin Bin


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
8m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
40861
14m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
63326
15m
Film game
Wanderer
6005
Recent
2025 Season tickets
Bullseye
29
Recent
2025 Kits
Dave K.
32
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
19s
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
MadDogg
3
19s
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Douglas Blac
3
20s
Planning for next season
Binosh
201
23s
Salford placed in special measures
supercat
126
30s
Super League
FIL
33
49s
Mike Cooper podcast
karetaker
48
1m
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
RLFANS News
1
1m
2025 Kits
Dave K.
32
1m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
63326
2m
2024 l Academy Scholarship & Reserves News
ArthurClues
224
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
1
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
MadDogg
3
TODAY
Rule Changes
mwindass
4
TODAY
Player Contracts
Trojan Horse
4
TODAY
Fans Forum 12 Dec 11th
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Laurie Daley returns as NSW origin coach
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2025 Challenge Cup
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Challenge Cup
BigTime
6
TODAY
Friendlies
Deadcowboys1
3
TODAY
Sam Luckley likely to miss the beginning of new season
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Frankie Halton sign new deal
ColD
2
TODAY
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
HU8HFC
29
TODAY
Trinity shop Sunday opening
phe13
1
TODAY
Tyler Craig
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Matty Ashurst testimonial dinner
Big lads mat
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Thu 13th Feb
SL
20:00
Wigan-Leigh
Fri 14th Feb
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Castleford
SL
20:00
Catalans-Hull FC
Sat 15th Feb
SL
15:00
Leeds - Wakefield
SL
17:30
St.Helens-Salford
Sun 16th Feb
SL
15:00
Huddersfield-Warrington
Thu 20th Feb
SL
20:00
Wakefield - Hull KR
Fri 21st Feb
SL
20:00
Warrington-Catalans
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Wigan
Sat 22nd Feb
SL
15:00
Salford-Leeds
SL
20:00
Castleford-St.Helens
Sun 23rd Feb
SL
14:30
Leigh-Huddersfield
Fri 28th Feb
SL
20:00
Huddersfield-Hull FC
SL
20:00
Hull KR-Salford
SL
20:00
Leigh-Catalans
Sat 1st Mar
SL
14:30
Wakefield - St.Helens
SL
21:30
Wigan-Warrington
Sun 2nd Mar
SL
15:00
Leeds-Castleford
Thu 6th Mar
SL
20:00
Hull FC-Leigh
Fri 7th Mar
SL
20:00
Castleford-Salford
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Mens Betfred Super League XXVIII ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wigan 29 768 338 430 48
Hull KR 29 731 344 387 44
Warrington 29 769 351 418 42
Leigh 29 580 442 138 33
Salford 28 556 561 -5 32
St.Helens 28 618 411 207 30
 
Catalans 27 475 427 48 30
Leeds 27 530 488 42 28
Huddersfield 27 468 658 -190 20
Castleford 27 425 735 -310 15
Hull FC 27 328 894 -566 6
LondonB 27 317 916 -599 6
This is an inplay table and live positions can change.
Betfred Championship 2024 ROUND : 1
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Wakefield 27 1032 275 757 52
Toulouse 26 765 388 377 37
Bradford 28 723 420 303 36
York 29 695 501 194 32
Widnes 27 561 502 59 29
Featherstone 27 634 525 109 28
 
Sheffield 26 626 526 100 28
Doncaster 26 498 619 -121 25
Halifax 26 509 650 -141 22
Batley 26 422 591 -169 22
Swinton 28 484 676 -192 20
Barrow 25 442 720 -278 19
Whitehaven 25 437 826 -389 18
Dewsbury 27 348 879 -531 4
Hunslet 1 6 10 -4 0
RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
8m
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
40861
14m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
63326
15m
Film game
Wanderer
6005
Recent
2025 Season tickets
Bullseye
29
Recent
2025 Kits
Dave K.
32
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
19s
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
MadDogg
3
19s
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
Douglas Blac
3
20s
Planning for next season
Binosh
201
23s
Salford placed in special measures
supercat
126
30s
Super League
FIL
33
49s
Mike Cooper podcast
karetaker
48
1m
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
RLFANS News
1
1m
2025 Kits
Dave K.
32
1m
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
63326
2m
2024 l Academy Scholarship & Reserves News
ArthurClues
224
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Wigan warriors 2022 away shirt
WWste
1
TODAY
Captains Challenge for Televised Games in 2025
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Captains Challenge to be introduced in 2025
MadDogg
3
TODAY
Rule Changes
mwindass
4
TODAY
Player Contracts
Trojan Horse
4
TODAY
Fans Forum 12 Dec 11th
Dunkirk Spir
3
TODAY
Laurie Daley returns as NSW origin coach
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
2025 Challenge Cup
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Challenge Cup
BigTime
6
TODAY
Friendlies
Deadcowboys1
3
TODAY
Sam Luckley likely to miss the beginning of new season
Huddersfield
1
TODAY
Frankie Halton sign new deal
ColD
2
TODAY
Transfer chatter for 2025 - New Dec 1st tamper date
HU8HFC
29
TODAY
Trinity shop Sunday opening
phe13
1
TODAY
Tyler Craig
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Matty Ashurst testimonial dinner
Big lads mat
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS


Visit the RLFANS.COM SHOP
for more merchandise!