[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:31 am  

IR80 wrote:

Hussein murdered his own people, hardly comparable to historical figures that, in their time, where doing nothing out of the ordinary. Husseins statue was brought down with the support of popular opinion, not an angry mob jumping on a cause as a vehicle for anarchy. Even if pulling it down was justified, throwing it into the Marina was definitely unnecessary, someone will have to pay to pull it put etc. not the baying mob of violent protesters I imagine.

They’re different, but in terms of being an appalling stain on humanity I think the West African slave trade is comparable to all of the most dreadful abuses and crimes in history.

The West African slave trade was ‘in their time, nothing out the ordinary’... I mean it is true from their perspective, but that is one of the horrors of it, that it was normalized and institutionalised. That something is legal doesn’t make it right and something isn’t necessarily wrong because it is illegal - if the laws are rotten.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:50 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

They’re different, but in terms of being an appalling stain on humanity I think the West African slave trade is comparable to all of the most dreadful abuses and crimes in history.

The West African slave trade was ‘in their time, nothing out the ordinary’... I mean it is true from their perspective, but that is one of the horrors of it, that it was normalized and institutionalised. That something is legal doesn’t make it right and something isn’t necessarily wrong because it is illegal - if the laws are rotten.

Indeed, just look at apartheid, with was prevalent in many countries and is probable a substantial reason why the treatment of non whites has lasted so long.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:55 am  

The Ghost of '99 wrote:

Most statues of Lenin and Stalin were removed after the fall of the Soviet Union.
TBH it's amazing that people can't take a moment to reconsider the role of people in history. The standards of their time are static but the standards of our time are not. We can easily ask, "would we put a statue up to that person now?" and, then, "why not?". If it's because their achievements have been forgotten, fine. If it's because they were butchers or slavers then we shouldn't simply leave those monuments around just because they've always been there. Leave the plinths for genuine heroes, the removed statues can be sited in a museum where their context can be explained in greater detail.

People like Churchill are more difficult because he clearly did some awful things but for British people this is balanced by his genuine inspiring leadership. Someone using the profits of their slave business to build some fine buildings in Bristol does not compare - the awful is not outweighed by the good. Fortunately in a lot of these cases the situation is pretty clear cut.

I think this is good post - but we need to be careful about how holier than though we expect our heroes to be - make no mistake Mandela was no saint in the early days of the ANC, he was nothing short of a terrorist - so does his name get removed from everywhere. Most of the revered industrialist employed child labour - do they go too? Where do you stop.

On the slaves - who sold the slaves to the likes of Colston?

[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:37 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

On the slaves - who sold the slaves to the likes of Colston?

Other black Africans participated significantly in the trade and were absolutely culpable. However, being black and African it wasn’t founded from their perspective on concepts of race that prevailed among white slave traders and owners, and which we’re still struggling to overcome today, along with negative consequences of the actions back then and the attitudes that persist.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:50 pm  

It is time to dismantle the Pyramids, (Built by slaves)
It is Time to dismantle the Taj Mahal (Built by slaves)
It is time to dismantle the Great Wall of China, (Built by slaves)
It time to dismantle the Parthenon (Built by slaves)
It is time to dismantle the Colosseum (Built by slaves)
time to destroy the Roman Roads throughout Europe, (Built by slaves)
Time to dismantle the Sultan Amed Mosque in Istanbul (Built by slaves)
Time to dismantle the Temple on the Mount (Built by slaves)

So many of our most beautiful and iconic buildings were built by Slaves, paid for by money made from trading slaves, running with foundations paid for by "philanthropists"

The list is endless. Should we destroy all of our heritage and history because people are so ignorant and uneducated that they have no real idea of the sacrifices made on their behalf to ensure they are and will remain free.
Henry Ford was an anti semite and one of Hitlers idols, let's ban cars. Perfume, cosmetics, tested on animals, ban them too? Germans, started more wars in Europe than anyone else, let us just shoot every German?

and still none of pur rightepus liberal left will explain to me why we don't start with a mass demolition of churches...

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:12 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Other black Africans participated significantly in the trade and were absolutely culpable. However, being black and African it wasn’t founded from their perspective on concepts of race that prevailed among white slave traders and owners, and which we’re still struggling to overcome today, along with negative consequences of the actions back then and the attitudes that persist.

It was founded on worth - the slaves didn't have any worth to their black African owners - perhaps we need to start there when we look at the inferiority complex that black's appear to carry like a huge weight on their shoulders. If their own kind had valued them they wouldn't have been available as slaves?

Look what happened in Rwanda - when the tutsi's were caught up by the Hutus - it is the sheer brutality of it all that is so shocking!!

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:13 pm  

IR80 wrote:

and still none of pur rightepus liberal left will explain to me why we don't start with a mass demolition of churches...

I'd happily see religion eradicated tomorrow.

[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:41 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It was founded on worth - the slaves didn't have any worth to their black African owners - perhaps we need to start there when we look at the inferiority complex that black's appear to carry like a huge weight on their shoulders. If their own kind had valued them they wouldn't have been available as slaves?

Look what happened in Rwanda - when the tutsi's were caught up by the Hutus - it is the sheer brutality of it all that is so shocking!!

Actually they had quite a lot of economic worth, and the end of the trade was met with dismay by some black Africans who profited from it. But I take your point about not valuing their victims’ humanity.

I think this concept of ‘their own kind’ is unhelpful. People with different skin colours are not fundamentally different kinds of people. They likely othered their victims on some sort of different but still spurious distinction, to justify their poophouse behaviour. Different tribe or some such. On Rwanda, it’s not like white Europeans haven’t spent centuries knocking the cack out of each other in various conflicts, is it?

IR80 wrote:

It is time to dismantle the Pyramids, (Built by slaves)
It is Time to dismantle the Taj Mahal (Built by slaves)
It is time to dismantle the Great Wall of China, (Built by slaves)
It time to dismantle the Parthenon (Built by slaves)
It is time to dismantle the Colosseum (Built by slaves)
time to destroy the Roman Roads throughout Europe, (Built by slaves)
Time to dismantle the Sultan Amed Mosque in Istanbul (Built by slaves)
Time to dismantle the Temple on the Mount (Built by slaves)

So many of our most beautiful and iconic buildings were built by Slaves, paid for by money made from trading slaves, running with foundations paid for by "philanthropists"

The list is endless. Should we destroy all of our heritage and history because people are so ignorant and uneducated that they have no real idea of the sacrifices made on their behalf to ensure they are and will remain free.
Henry Ford was an anti semite and one of Hitlers idols, let's ban cars. Perfume, cosmetics, tested on animals, ban them too? Germans, started more wars in Europe than anyone else, let us just shoot every German?

and still none of pur rightepus liberal left will explain to me why we don't start with a mass demolition of churches...

No, I don’t think that would be helpful.

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:51 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Actually they had quite a lot of economic worth, and the end of the trade was met with dismay by some black Africans who profited from it. But I take your point about not valuing their victims’ humanity.

I think this concept of ‘their own kind’ is unhelpful. People with different skin colours are not fundamentally different kinds of people. They likely othered their victims on some sort of different but still spurious distinction, to justify their poophouse behaviour. Different tribe or some such. On Rwanda, it’s not like white Europeans haven’t spent centuries knocking the cack out of each other in various conflicts, is it?

No, I don’t think that would be helpful.

Tribal behaviour is a very interesting area of thought - especially in Africa and perhaps even more so in Arabic countries. Sunni's and the Shia etc perhaps these things are far more deep rooted than black vs white?

[Mild Rover]

Re: US Presidential election 2020 : Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:19 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Tribal behaviour is a very interesting area of thought - especially in Africa and perhaps even more so in Arabic countries. Sunni's and the Shia etc perhaps these things are far more deep rooted than black vs white?

Sunni and Shia, not unlike Protestant and Catholic, is a sectarian divide rather than a tribal one.

People are just people, the good and the bad and mostly the mixed, and a lot of things we perceive as being deep-rooted can change and evolve pretty rapidly, on a historical scale.