Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:14 pm  

Moe syslak wrote:

I know there was a long thread about them previously, but there was an outstanding junior team at rylands that were virtually all signed up by saints. There is some excellent rugby talent in the town and we shouldn't be missing out on them to other clubs.

Yeah i remember this, i thought it was odd that's saints saw so much in them but we didn't. Makes you question our scouts etc, Saints aren't the type of Club to simply sign anyone and hope they come good.
Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.
Somebody said the pressure on our coaches to win must be massive, and i believe this is a factor in not bringing the kids through.
But i also think not having an academy competition, with our young team playing each week is also a huge factor. It makes super league look so amateurish it's unreal and i find it bizzarre it was scrapped and many teams are against it i genuinely don't understand it.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:46 pm  

Or thane wrote:

Yeah i remember this, i thought it was odd that's saints saw so much in them but we didn't. Makes you question our scouts etc, Saints aren't the type of Club to simply sign anyone and hope they come good.
Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.
Somebody said the pressure on our coaches to win must be massive, and i believe this is a factor in not bringing the kids through.
But i also think not having an academy competition, with our young team playing each week is also a huge factor. It makes super league look so amateurish it's unreal and i find it bizzarre it was scrapped and many teams are against it i genuinely don't understand it.

With junior recruitment it's a case of if we sign enough of them, than there's more chance of some making SL. There's way more that don't make it from junior RL/academy than do as it's a numbers game. The trick is getting a better percentage that make it through into the SL ranks.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:42 pm  

ratticusfinch wrote:

I don't think we're miles behind academy wise. Wigan, saints and Leeds cast their net wide as well, not all these academy products are local to them. Our problem is them getting a chance

We are not miles behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds, if the metric is percentage of players that come through in to the first team, or that get a good number of games.

If the metric is, percentage of real top class players - good enough to be difference makers in Grand Finals, like Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, O'Loughlin, Roby, Graham etc, then we are light years behind them.

Also for a few years now I've heard people talk about these lads from Rylands that got signed up by St Helens. Who were they, did any of them have good careers with Saints? Would be interesting to see how different their experience was with Saints compared to if they'd signed for us...did Saints show more patience with them? Better coaching to develop them into top players?

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:51 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

We are not miles behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds, if the metric is percentage of players that come through in to the first team, or that get a good number of games.

If the metric is, percentage of real top class players - good enough to be difference makers in Grand Finals, like Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, O'Loughlin, Roby, Graham etc, then we are light years behind them.

Also for a few years now I've heard people talk about these lads from Rylands that got signed up by St Helens. Who were they, did any of them have good careers with Saints? Would be interesting to see how different their experience was with Saints compared to if they'd signed for us...did Saints show more patience with them? Better coaching to develop them into top players?

I'm fairly sure that our resident WA9'er will inform us that they're currently on the way to winning several GF's, as Saints youth policy (like anything else they do) is far superior to ours.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:55 pm  

Or thane wrote:

Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.

I remember when TS was coach, and we were pretty sure of getting a playoff spot, he would sometimes rotate the squad and rest a few first teamers to play some young Academy players. The reaction on here was always "well if the club is going to pick and choose their games I'm going to pick and choose what games I go to watch..."

Its the same as would happen every year when the team line up was published for the Boxing Day or New Years' pre season games. It would mostly be Academy players, and people were like "£15 to watch the Academy? forget it". The fans just wanted to see our new Aussie signings get a run out, they didn't want to watch these local teenagers.

We saw it when Price played Ashton over Ratchford....outrage on here! Ratchford was apparently our greatest ever SL signing and Price dared put a lad who'd signed from Swinton, at fullback ahead of him.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:42 pm  

The only measure of success we need to worry about wrt our Academy is the number that are playing on a regular basis for the club. At the moment it is 4, King, Currie, Cooper and Philbin, and that is miles behind Saints and Wigan.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 6:56 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I remember when TS was coach, and we were pretty sure of getting a playoff spot, he would sometimes rotate the squad and rest a few first teamers to play some young Academy players. The reaction on here was always "well if the club is going to pick and choose their games I'm going to pick and choose what games I go to watch..."

Its the same as would happen every year when the team line up was published for the Boxing Day or New Years' pre season games. It would mostly be Academy players, and people were like "£15 to watch the Academy? forget it". The fans just wanted to see our new Aussie signings get a run out, they didn't want to watch these local teenagers.

We saw it when Price played Ashton over Ratchford....outrage on here! Ratchford was apparently our greatest ever SL signing and Price dared put a lad who'd signed from Swinton, at fullback ahead of him.

That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:26 pm  

Or thane wrote:

That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.

Absolutely, a balancing act that is nigh on impossible to get right.

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:45 pm  

Winslade's Offload wrote:

The only measure of success we need to worry about wrt our Academy is the number that are playing on a regular basis for the club. At the moment it is 4, King, Currie, Cooper and Philbin, and that is miles behind Saints and Wigan.

The only measure of success is whether we win the Grand Final. Any club can roll out its Academy players in the first team, it doesn't make it a success if they win feck all.

If we were fielding this all-home grown starting 13 in 2021, where do you think it would finish in SL? Would this be proof that our Academy was better than Wigans or Saints?

Gareth O'Brien
Rhys Williams
Toby King
Rhys Evans
Gene Ormsby
Riley Dean
Dec Patton
Mike Cooper (c)
Brad Dwyer
Ben Evans
Joe Philbin
Ben Currie
Harvey Livett

Re: Grow your own : Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:48 pm  

Or thane wrote:

That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.

It's more like damned if you lose and praised if you win.

Why did Sir Alex Ferguson get so much praise for bringing through young players at United in the 1990s, but Dave O'Leary never got the same praise for doing that at both Leeds and Villa?