Re: Matty Peet : Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:44 pm  

This is more of an off-season topic but I love these sorts of things. Firstly, I would look at who the competition is. This would be my shortlist.

Shaun Wane - 7 seasons in charge. 3 Grand Final wins, 1 League Leader's Shield, 1 WCC, 1 Challenge Cup. Also reached two more Grand Finals and one more Challenge Cup Final. Won the double in 2013. Under Wane Wigan were noted for defensive grit and a team that relied on mobility and stamina to wear the opposition down, rather than size and power, or flair and creativity. Wane’s teams were frequently criticised for being dull to watch, and this was a criticism that seemed to grow as his tenure lasted. Nevertheless, Wane achieved considerable success and did so with a team that was very much based around local talent, many of whom he had previously coached in the academy setup. The other question is how much of Wane’s success was owed to the foundation built by the previous coach, Michael Maguire, who was generally recognised as having transformed Wigan from also-rans to a genuine top-tier side. It cannot be ignored that Wane was part of that coaching setup as well, being Maguire’s assistant.

Michael Maguire – 2 seasons in charge. 1 Grand Final win, 1 League Leader’s Shield, 1 Challenge Cup. When Michael Maguire came to Wigan the club had gone five seasons without appearing in a final, seven without winning a trophy and ten seasons without being crowned champions, all things that would have been unthinkable at any point in the 1990s. Under previous coach Brian Noble the team had been regular, but unconvincing, play-off contenders. Without drastically changing the squad, Maguire led the team to a dominant championship in his first season. Wigan under Maguire were a well-drilled outfit, brutal and uncompromising in defence but able to unlock defences with skill and pace. Wigan followed their championship with a terrific Challenge Cup win, which saw them knock out holders Warrington in the quarter-finals, arch-rivals St Helens in the semis and finally defeat Leeds Rhinos in an excellent final. After that it was perhaps somewhat disappointing that they did not kick on and reach the Grand Final again.

John Monie – 6 seasons in charge, 1 spell of 4 years, 1 spell of 2. 5 Championships, including the inaugural Grand Final, 4 Challenge Cups, 1 WCC, numerous other trophies that would take too long to mention. In plain terms of trophies delivered, John Monie easily wins this competition. With four consecutive league and cup doubles, Monie stands alone as the most dominant coach in British rugby league history. The question that always dogs assessments of his reign is that of how much of his success was down to inheriting a team that was already the best in the competition. Monie’s second period in charge of the club was not as successful as his first, but still saw Wigan finish top of the league in 1998, after a couple of seasons off the top, reach the Challenge Cup Final and win the first ever Super League Grand Final. The recurring criticism of Monie’s initial run is that “anyone could have done it” but the truth is, “anyone” didn’t do it – he did.

Graham Lowe – 3 seasons in charge. 1 Championships, 2 Challenge Cups, 1 WCC, various other trophies. The way in which Graham Lowe laid the foundation for what John Monie achieved is somewhat similar to what Michael Maguire did before Shaun Wane took over. Before Lowe took over Wigan had finally ended a trophy drought dating back to the 1960s when they won the 84/85 Challenge Cup. However, it was Lowe who was to build that success from a one-off to a dynasty. He brought in top players from his native New Zealand, who would go on to become club legends, and he began the 8 in a row Challenge Cups that is the most famous winning streak in rugby league history.

Jim Sullivan – 20 (!) years in charge. 5 Championships, 2 Challenge Cups. Player coach from 1932, Jim Sullivan’s era is obviously hard to compare to later ones, but he absolutely belongs in any discussion of Wigan’s greatest coach. Jim had already led Wigan to one championship as captain and coach before he retired from playing in 1946 and focused solely on coaching. Between then and leaving the club in 1952 he then won another 4 championships as well as 2 Challenge Cups, making Wigan indisputably the dominant force of the era. He then went on to similar success at St Helens, taking them from a relatively mediocre club to a true top side and making sure that the Wigan-Saints rivalry would become one of the great British sporting rivalries.

So, while I think Matt Peet has already put himself very much on this list, I definitely think it is still too early to say that he has surpassed all of these men. For me, Monie remains the best. He took what was undeniably a great team but transformed them into a relentless winning machine that may never be matched. I would say Lowe and Sullivan follow close behind. Maguire’s impact on the club can’t be denied but two seasons is just not enough to quite put him in the same bracket as the others on this list, in my opinion.

Re: Matty Peet : Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:48 pm  

tyr wrote:

This is more of an off-season topic but I love these sorts of things. Firstly, I would look at who the competition is. This would be my shortlist.

Shaun Wane - 7 seasons in charge. 3 Grand Final wins, 1 League Leader's Shield, 1 WCC, 1 Challenge Cup. Also reached two more Grand Finals and one more Challenge Cup Final. Won the double in 2013. Under Wane Wigan were noted for defensive grit and a team that relied on mobility and stamina to wear the opposition down, rather than size and power, or flair and creativity. Wane’s teams were frequently criticised for being dull to watch, and this was a criticism that seemed to grow as his tenure lasted. Nevertheless, Wane achieved considerable success and did so with a team that was very much based around local talent, many of whom he had previously coached in the academy setup. The other question is how much of Wane’s success was owed to the foundation built by the previous coach, Michael Maguire, who was generally recognised as having transformed Wigan from also-rans to a genuine top-tier side. It cannot be ignored that Wane was part of that coaching setup as well, being Maguire’s assistant.

Michael Maguire – 2 seasons in charge. 1 Grand Final win, 1 League Leader’s Shield, 1 Challenge Cup. When Michael Maguire came to Wigan the club had gone five seasons without appearing in a final, seven without winning a trophy and ten seasons without being crowned champions, all things that would have been unthinkable at any point in the 1990s. Under previous coach Brian Noble the team had been regular, but unconvincing, play-off contenders. Without drastically changing the squad, Maguire led the team to a dominant championship in his first season. Wigan under Maguire were a well-drilled outfit, brutal and uncompromising in defence but able to unlock defences with skill and pace. Wigan followed their championship with a terrific Challenge Cup win, which saw them knock out holders Warrington in the quarter-finals, arch-rivals St Helens in the semis and finally defeat Leeds Rhinos in an excellent final. After that it was perhaps somewhat disappointing that they did not kick on and reach the Grand Final again.

John Monie – 6 seasons in charge, 1 spell of 4 years, 1 spell of 2. 5 Championships, including the inaugural Grand Final, 4 Challenge Cups, 1 WCC, numerous other trophies that would take too long to mention. In plain terms of trophies delivered, John Monie easily wins this competition. With four consecutive league and cup doubles, Monie stands alone as the most dominant coach in British rugby league history. The question that always dogs assessments of his reign is that of how much of his success was down to inheriting a team that was already the best in the competition. Monie’s second period in charge of the club was not as successful as his first, but still saw Wigan finish top of the league in 1998, after a couple of seasons off the top, reach the Challenge Cup Final and win the first ever Super League Grand Final. The recurring criticism of Monie’s initial run is that “anyone could have done it” but the truth is, “anyone” didn’t do it – he did.

Graham Lowe – 4 seasons in charge. 2 Championships, 3 Challenge Cups, 1 WCC, various other trophies. The way in which Graham Lowe laid the foundation for what John Monie achieved is somewhat similar to what Michael Maguire did before Shaun Wane took over. Before Lowe took over Wigan had finally ended a trophy drought dating back to the 1960s when they won the 84/85 Challenge Cup. However, it was Lowe who was to build that success from a one-off to a dynasty. He brought in top players from his native New Zealand, who would go on to become club legends, and he began the 8 in a row Challenge Cups that is the most famous winning streak in rugby league history.

Jim Sullivan – 20 (!) years in charge. 5 Championships, 2 Challenge Cups. Player coach from 1932, Jim Sullivan’s era is obviously hard to compare to later ones, but he absolutely belongs in any discussion of Wigan’s greatest coach. Jim had already led Wigan to one championship as captain and coach before he retired from playing in 1946 and focused solely on coaching. Between then and leaving the club in 1952 he then won another 4 championships as well as 2 Challenge Cups, making Wigan indisputably the dominant force of the era. He then went on to similar success at St Helens, taking them from a relatively mediocre club to a true top side and making sure that the Wigan-Saints rivalry would become one of the great British sporting rivalries.

So, while I think Matt Peet has already put himself very much on this list, I definitely think it is still too early to say that he has surpassed all of these men. For me, Monie remains the best. He took what was undeniably a great team but transformed them into a relentless winning machine that may never be matched. I would say Lowe and Sullivan follow close behind. Maguire’s impact on the club can’t be denied but two seasons is just not enough to quite put him in the same bracket as the others on this list, in my opinion.

One small point
Lowe only did 3 season and won 1 championship (Widnes winning the other 2 in 88 and 89).

Re: Matty Peet : Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:49 am  

Jukesays wrote:

One small point
Lowe only did 3 season and won 1 championship (Widnes winning the other 2 in 88 and 89).

D'oh! Quite right, I somehow gave him Monie's first season as well. Now edited.

Re: Matty Peet : Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:50 am  

Major honours (League title, Challenge Cup, WCC)

John Monie - 10
Jim Sullivan - 7
Shaun Wane - 6
Matt Peet, Graham Lowe, Graeme West - 4

Peet has potential to top that list if he sticks around and we carry on this trajectory with success

Edit - just noted someone already posted a much more detailed analysis of the above.

Re: Matty Peet : Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:58 am  

Talking of honours, an interesting article has been published by Love Rugby League about trophies won by all the Superleague clubs. We're only 54 clear of second place! Plenty of Rugby League fans like to throw around the idea that from the late 80's to the mid 90's we bought every trophy we won, so if those people want to remove all those from the tally, we'll only be in.......1st place https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ra ... up-triumph

Talking of honours, an interesting article has been published by Love Rugby League about trophies won by all the Superleague clubs. We're only 54 clear of second place! Plenty of Rugby League fans like to throw around the idea that from the late 80's to the mid 90's we bought every trophy we won, so if those people want to remove all those from the tally, we'll only be in.......1st place https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ra ... up-triumph

Re: Matty Peet : Fri Jun 14, 2024 10:29 am  

Akinwale Arobieke wrote:

Major honours (League title, Challenge Cup, WCC)

John Monie - 10
Jim Sullivan - 7
Shaun Wane - 6
Matt Peet, Graham Lowe, Graeme West - 4

Peet has potential to top that list if he sticks around and we carry on this trajectory with success

Edit - just noted someone already posted a much more detailed analysis of the above.

Good to see you back Mr Purple!

Re: Matty Peet : Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:38 pm  

NickyKiss wrote: Talking of honours, an interesting article has been published by Love Rugby League about trophies won by all the Superleague clubs. We're only 54 clear of second place! Plenty of Rugby League fans like to throw around the idea that from the late 80's to the mid 90's we bought every trophy we won, so if those people want to remove all those from the tally, we'll only be in.......1st place https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ra ... up-triumph Fans from other teams are loosing their heads over this. Great to see

NickyKiss wrote: Talking of honours, an interesting article has been published by Love Rugby League about trophies won by all the Superleague clubs. We're only 54 clear of second place! Plenty of Rugby League fans like to throw around the idea that from the late 80's to the mid 90's we bought every trophy we won, so if those people want to remove all those from the tally, we'll only be in.......1st place https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ra ... up-triumph Fans from other teams are loosing their heads over this. Great to see

Re: Matty Peet : Mon Jun 17, 2024 9:45 am  

Graham Lowe will always be one of the greats for me. Not just because he revolutionised Wigan, but because he revolutionised the entire British game.

Prior to Lowe, successful coaches in the UK had been people like Alex Murphy and Peter Fox, who were all motivation and no technique, or Dougie Laughton, who was closer to Lowe in approach but still seemed like a dinosaur once Lowe's all-conquering team were out in the world.

The first thing Lowe did was get us hyper-fit. You used to hear stories around that time about how mid-season training would consist of a couple of times round the pitch, a game of tick-and-pass, and then into the bar to exercise the old drinking arm. I remember when the '82 Kangaroos arrived, and blew everyone away. They were so much fitter and faster than we were, but we didn't seem to learn anything from that. It took Graham Lowe - four years later! - to take a leaf out of the NRL's book and treat his role as head-coach with much more professionalism.

The rest, after that, is history. Wigan became a dominant force in the British game for years, and serious contenders on the world RL stage. John Monie brought refinements of his own - the Mission Impossible season was a staggering achievement - but it was Graham Lowe who set the standard that only the best would do.

As to whether or not it was his players that won those trophies for him, this is a tired argument. Firstly, Wigan did nothing at that time that any other club couldn't have done. Yes, they pulled together some quality players, but that in itself was an admirable feat (because a couple of years earlier, no one wanted to play for Wigan), and it's a myth that they were fully professional when no one else was. All the players in Graham Lowe's team had jobs or their own businesses. They only went fully pro in the early 90s - and Lowe had been and gone by then. But there's nothing morally questionable about signing great players anyway. I doubt there's been a great team in any sport in history who didn't have great players as well as a great coach. And that in itself was a challenge for Lowe, with some of the egos he had to manage.

Off the top of my head, the only 'great coach' who got found out later on was Ian Millward, who helmed an unbeatable St Helens team, but when he arrived at Wigan, who were in a sorry state at the time, was unable to do anything with them (and it pains me to say this, by the way, because I met Millward once and he was a thoroughly pleasant guy).

I can't comment on Jim Sullivan because he was so much before my time, but for me, Graham Lowe was the trend-setter, and the guy who reminded Wigan, and the Wigan fans, who they actually were.

Re: Matty Peet : Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:30 am  

Cruncher wrote:

Graham Lowe will always be one of the greats for me. Not just because he revolutionised Wigan, but because he revolutionised the entire British game.

Prior to Lowe, successful coaches in the UK had been people like Alex Murphy and Peter Fox, who were all motivation and no technique, or Dougie Laughton, who was closer to Lowe in approach but still seemed like a dinosaur once Lowe's all-conquering team were out in the world.

The first thing Lowe did was get us hyper-fit. You used to hear stories around that time about how mid-season training would consist of a couple of times round the pitch, a game of tick-and-pass, and then into the bar to exercise the old drinking arm. I remember when the '82 Kangaroos arrived, and blew everyone away. They were so much fitter and faster than we were, but we didn't seem to learn anything from that. It took Graham Lowe - four years later! - to take a leaf out of the NRL's book and treat his role as head-coach with much more professionalism.

The rest, after that, is history. Wigan became a dominant force in the British game for years, and serious contenders on the world RL stage. John Monie brought refinements of his own - the Mission Impossible season was a staggering achievement - but it was Graham Lowe who set the standard that only the best would do.

As to whether or not it was his players that won those trophies for him, this is a tired argument. Firstly, Wigan did nothing at that time that any other club couldn't have done. Yes, they pulled together some quality players, but that in itself was an admirable feat (because a couple of years earlier, no one wanted to play for Wigan), and it's a myth that they were fully professional when no one else was. All the players in Graham Lowe's team had jobs or their own businesses. They only went fully pro in the early 90s - and Lowe had been and gone by then. But there's nothing morally questionable about signing great players anyway. I doubt there's been a great team in any sport in history who didn't have great players as well as a great coach. And that in itself was a challenge for Lowe, with some of the egos he had to manage.

Off the top of my head, the only 'great coach' who got found out later on was Ian Millward, who helmed an unbeatable St Helens team, but when he arrived at Wigan, who were in a sorry state at the time, was unable to do anything with them (and it pains me to say this, by the way, because I met Millward once and he was a thoroughly pleasant guy).

I can't comment on Jim Sullivan because he was so much before my time, but for me, Graham Lowe was the trend-setter, and the guy who reminded Wigan, and the Wigan fans, who they actually were.

Can't disagree with that but I would add it was also partially a result of the influx of top professional overseas players like Graeme West and Dean Bell who brought a level of professionalism as well to the club.

Re: Matty Peet : Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:57 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

Can't disagree with that but I would add it was also partially a result of the influx of top professional overseas players like Graeme West and Dean Bell who brought a level of professionalism as well to the club.

Yes, they were all part of a huge culture change at Wigan.

And it was this that Rads eluded to in his book, when he described how badly things had been allowed to slide under Whelan's ownership.