: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:10 am  

pyeman wrote:

So you want celtic crusaders to succeed and prove that the rfl where right to admit them into sl after all?

I've said many times. I really don't care a toss either way if they won the GF this year or go out of existance in a gratuitous manner. I don't believe it was right for them to play in the NL with the advantages they had, the concept of the licencing arrangements or the need to put them in SL last year.

FWIW I believe they should have had a far more established base than they did, earn their spurs in the NL and develop a business model not solely reliant on one man.

I believe it is a project doomed to failure and believe either Widnes and to a much lesser exent Leigh, would have faired better than the celtic club.

I am that embittered with the RL/SL at the mo, my feelings towards the Celtic club are clouded by my angst. Do I want em to fail??? Prob no, but I believe they will, unless they take a step back to the NL and build up a sensible business plan - with the existance of a Plan B!!! Tho I feel it may be too late anyhow. As you say, Time will indeed tell.

My anger towards the RL/SL will be ten times worse if they do fail!

: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:26 am  

Rotherham Fev Fan wrote:

I've said many times. I really don't care a toss either way if they won the GF this year or go out of existance in a gratuitous manner. I don't believe it was right for them to play in the NL with the advantages they had, the concept of the licencing arrangements or the need to put them in SL last year.

FWIW I believe they should have had a far more established base than they did, earn their spurs in the NL and develop a business model not solely reliant on one man.

I believe it is a project doomed to failure and believe either Widnes and to a much lesser exent Leigh, would have faired better than the celtic club.

I am that embittered with the RL/SL at the mo, my feelings towards the Celtic club are clouded by my angst. Do I want em to fail??? Prob no, but I believe they will, unless they take a step back to the NL and build up a sensible business plan - with the existance of a Plan B!!! Tho I feel it may be too late anyhow. As you say, Time will indeed tell.

My anger towards the RL/SL will be ten times worse if they do fail!

If your angry with the rfl be angry with the rfl, celtic played by the rules that were set for them by the rfl, i was angry with the rfl in 2006 because we got relegated without being bottom, but i wasnt angry with catalans, i still wanted to see them succeed as i want to see all clubs succeed for the good of the sport, i cant understand why a rl fan wouldnt want a club to be a success (whether its wakey or widnes, blackpool or bradford etc) for the good of the sport even if your are honestley indifferant, i find it a crying shame that a 'supporter' of our sport doesnt want good things to happen to our sport.

: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:46 am  

Following a SL team I can imagine why you say that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, 'a good thing for our sport', seeing a club inplanted in SL, something which my club cannot achieve now - for at least 3 years, and that's if you believe in the sham that is the licence application???? Good?? My fat ginger botty!!!!

You're lucky. You're rugby enjoyment can continue at the top level, free forever from the fear of relegation. Mine is now almost devoid of hope of watching my club play at the top level again - and for what???
An ill thought out venture that is purported to be "good for our sport"???

No my owd cockle doodle doo! If it's all the same, I'll continue to **** and moan until some fairness is back in our game.

Crusaders??? As I said, I really don't give a toss either way such is my embittered stance on the game.
Sadly, there are plenty like me who do watchclosely the performance of the crusaders to assess what a "success" the welsh experiment has been and to evaluate if the sacrifice of the NL clubs has been worth it, and as such, they are in the spotlighjt! It is ONLY MY OPINION, but it isn't worth it.
I do believe the long term success of celtic will depend on how long the RFL will shore them up. I believe the club will fail. - But I've been wrong afoore and no doubt will be again. Whether or not I will be on this issue remains to be seen.

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:28 am  

Not wishing to split hairs, but even without the franchise system, Featherstone are not going to make it into Superleague. It's not the RFL that are keeping you out of SL. It's your inability to win enough games. Yeah we were implanted into SL. The RFL wanted to expand the league by 2 teams and the top 2 teams from NL1 went through. REAL conspiracy that one. And Widnes were not even close. Fax maybe, but not Widnes. Even without their deducted points we beat them.

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:35 am  

Grendel wrote:

Not wishing to split hairs, but even without the franchise system, Featherstone are not going to make it into Superleague. It's not the RFL that are keeping you out of SL. It's your inability to win enough games. Yeah we were implanted into SL. The RFL wanted to expand the league by 2 teams and the top 2 teams from NL1 went through. REAL conspiracy that one. And Widnes were not even close. Fax maybe, but not Widnes. Even without their deducted points we beat them.

But as you know the RFL were not paying for half a dozen Australians to go to Featherstone to work as ' community development officers ' who were then available to play for Featherstone ?

Were they

Old argument , all been done to death , RFF has his opinion and I doubt you will change it

I accept him having that opinion just as I accept yours

You are now in SL and as far as I am concerned you must be a success even if that means the RFL funding you at least until 2012

My only stipulation on that is any help you recieve should come from the SL clubs pot and not from monies earmarked for anything else

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:11 am  

good call starbug!
I just wished they'd help Donny, worky,rochdale et al get their houses in order too in the same vein as CC.

Grendel, you are correct. Fev are nowhere near ready at the mo. However, year on year growth as we're seeing at the mo does not mean we won't be sometime soon.
Hypothesis:- I win £95m on Euromillions and donate £50m to Fev. They still won't be allowed in as things stand!! - Wrong IMO.

Reality:- Year on year growth, sustainable business plan, fall back plans in case of severe recession, increased investment/sponsorship etc - win NL GF, become best NL team by "a country mile" (Calland M, 2009).
We're still not allowed in!!!

Team from Wales implanted into SL, teetering on the edge cos they weren't ready!!!! Futility. Welsh fans happy, their SL future assured as long as the money lasts. NL fans - hacked off, devoid of hope other than watching their teams playing in the NL's. - can't swear and my depth of feeling cannot be truly illustrated on a forum such as this!!!! Face to face is much better!

Still, a win last night. A few more and you yet might get a crowd in. However, I was in Bridgend and Cardiff last week and got talking to some of the locals. Apathy at best was my experience of the locals towards the Celtic club. Some sort of Union based comedy ref was the other galling response!

Now I'm sure than knowing my posts on here, you'll think I'm making that up or over exaggerating the comments. I'm not - they were true.

It's not the likes of me you need to convince - Starbug is correct. My opinion is unlikely to be changed. It's those of the locals you need to win over. If you can't do that, you've got nowt!!!! Newport awaits then. Maybe they'll enjoy league there!!!!!

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:57 pm  

Actually Fev I'm prepared to take you at your word regarding the response of locals. The problem we have to overcome is an inbred hostility towards league because way back in the dim and distant mists of time, League poached most of the Welsh Union team, leaving us with a team full of Cardiff or Neath RFC players who just weren't up to the task. It took the WRU 20 odd years to get back from the lost generation. This attitude is encouraged by the WRU and selfish knobs like Cardiff Blues and Neath Swansea Ospreys who actively want us to fail because they feel we are poaching "their" players.
The fact that the Celtic Crusaders will ultimately be a team of Welsh players and is a club that had absolutely nothing to do with the diaspora of Welsh players in the 80s escapes these goons entirely. But in a country of 3,000,000 we should be able to build up to a regular crowd of at least 6,000. That's what i hope anyway

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:24 pm  

Grendel wrote:

Actually Fev I'm prepared to take you at your word regarding the response of locals. The problem we have to overcome is an inbred hostility towards league because way back in the dim and distant mists of time, League poached most of the Welsh Union team, leaving us with a team full of Cardiff or Neath RFC players who just weren't up to the task. It took the WRU 20 odd years to get back from the lost generation. This attitude is encouraged by the WRU and selfish knobs like Cardiff Blues and Neath Swansea Ospreys who actively want us to fail because they feel we are poaching "their" players.
The fact that the Celtic Crusaders will ultimately be a team of Welsh players and is a club that had absolutely nothing to do with the diaspora of Welsh players in the 80s escapes these goons entirely. But in a country of 3,000,000 we should be able to build up to a regular crowd of at least 6,000. That's what i hope anyway

Correct , given time , but time costs money , and that is the whole point and problem

Do you have enough money to last long enough to build that fan base ?

If not then whoever , be that the club or the RFL should come clean and say so

Then the RFL decide that the positives of having a club in Wales are worth investing in and declare to the whole sport what they intend doing

There is then much knashing of teeth and wailing by clubs and fans alike but the RFL convince the SL clubs [ grudgingly ] to all each chip in £ 40 k of their SKy money for the greater good

Celtic survive and prosper , Championship club fans are happy and no longer cue up to whinge about Celtic , that job is then taken up by fans of SL clubs who disagree with their clubs ' suffering ' as a result of Celtic being in SL

All is well with the world

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:00 pm  

Starbug, and there's the rub. We have three years. We succeed, we get our franchise renewed. We don't we're out on our rears and into NL1.
Having seen franchising at work with the "regional" rugby Union sides, we are doing better than Cardiff Blues and The Neef Swansea Ospreys did in their first year in the top flight and three years later they are averaging 9,000. Now although we have to fight the ignorant prejudice of anti-league types, we have a much larger area to draw support from. 9,000 might be pushing it for all but the big games, but 6,000 average by 2011 seems areasonable target. And as regards financial support, we are in a recession totally unforseen when we got the license. Before it ends, I suspect we may not be the only ones looking to the RFL for a bit of support. But this is only going to be speculation by either of us. So let's just let the situation unfold and see where it leads us.

: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:09 pm  

Grendel wrote:

Starbug, and there's the rub. We have three years. We succeed, we get our franchise renewed. We don't we're out on our rears and into NL1.
Having seen franchising at work with the "regional" rugby Union sides, we are doing better than Cardiff Blues and The Neef Swansea Ospreys did in their first year in the top flight and three years later they are averaging 9,000. Now although we have to fight the ignorant prejudice of anti-league types, we have a much larger area to draw support from. 9,000 might be pushing it for all but the big games, but 6,000 average by 2011 seems areasonable target. And as regards financial support, we are in a recession totally unforseen when we got the license. Before it ends, I suspect we may not be the only ones looking to the RFL for a bit of support. But this is only going to be speculation by either of us. So let's just let the situation unfold and see where it leads us.

The ' rub ' isn't quite as you put it

NL 1 , or Championship or whatever it will be called by then , been tried before and even less likely to see you survive in it

The reccession was on its way well before last July , it was just a case of people not wanting to see it , if you mean this is the reason for Mr Samuels not being as able to support you well there again , businesses struggle all the time and can fail at any time

I dont want you to drop out of SL , you are now in there and there are alot of potential benifits of you staying in there and prospering in there

On another thread I posted about how many times successful businessmen lose all there business sense when getting involved with pro sport , they then hit a barrier called ' pride ' , they are that used to success and cannot acept that things are not working that they try for too long before admitting they need help

I dont want this to happen with your club [ your club as in the fans , because all pro sporting clubs belong to the fans of those clubs not the owners ] as Mr Samuels has put his money where his mouth is and it would be a bloody shame if after 4/5 years of investment it fails and you lot then see him as a failure

I would rather the RFL step in and help [ Forget all this ' task force crap ] financially to make sure his money already invested is not wasted

Before it is too late

Here is my post off the Celtic thread on the VT

Leaguefan wrote: Agreed these people are the lifeblood of the game and no doubt "lose" money by their involvement.A concern/niggle is that, to some, running a RL club is seen as a "hobby" and not as a business and unfortunately this has caused a lot of clubs, including Keighley several times, to go to the wall.

I know that the people involved do have the game at heart otherwise why would they bother but sometimes basic financial sense needs to rule the roost.

What I do "know" is that several " top sides" as well as co-op teams, are probably trading "illegally" as are many soccer clubs, even more so the premier league.

The nature of the beast though is that do survive or like the phoenix arise renewed from the ashes but then go through the same process all over again.

I suppose, deep down, we all should be greatful that the game at a "professional" exists at all in some areas thanks to the involvment of these backers because if not, and the the full weight of businees law applied, there would, I suggest, be very few "professional" RL clubs left and soccer would probably cease to exist in places, (although that would be no bad thing. )

I replied
I have posted several times that when you get involved with supporting so called proffessional sport at board room level it matters not what your ' Business track record ' is as all sensible business rules go out of the window

How many on here have posted " He Knows what he is doing he wouldn't be a millionaire if he didn't " , it means nothing because nobody gets involved with proffessional sport if the use their heads

If you try to run any business with your heart it will fail

My accountant said to me " are you raving mad " when I told him

He was right

The other problem that rears it's ugly head when you do get involved is ' Pride ' , many people have been mostly anonymous in building their businesses up to that point

Suddenly they are thrust into the spotlight , they are hailed as the ' saviour ' of the towns club

How many times are the words " Thing will be different this time " heard ?

And then when things are not going to plan because you cannot ' plan ' in sport , it doesn't work that way then ' Pride ' starts to kick in , they will not admit that they cannot give the fans what was promised , they cannot guarantee that SL place or that GF

So they continue slowly putting the club in a more and more precarious position , not willing to admit defeat and ask for help until it is too late

They then become the ' devils child ' for not delivering the ' dream '

And quite often they then slip away never to be seen again , which is a shame because they are the people that really understand what trying to run a successful club is all about

They are the ones the next ' saviour ' should talk to

But they are ' a millionaire businessman ' , so they know what they are doing