Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:09 pm  

soss wrote:

Widnes were in Administration? 2007..and only survived due to SOC dragging the club out of the mire. Widnes have come on leaps and bounds since then through the backing of SOC and a great financial structure.

Not true, The were two other bids for the club after admistration. One of those bids was from Jim Quin, who is nearly as wealthy as SOC.

soss wrote:

My point is that you are not unique in this league. There are clubs with their very own SOC's waiting in the wings.

But they are unlikely to have the head start already offered to SOC. Our club already had much of what we have now in place, so he was able to take things to the next level very quickly. Only Leigh are even close to this position; they don’t match it, but they are the most likely.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:14 pm  

Pepe wrote:

So, which current Champioship club will be able to put in place a bid, that betters the one Widnes are likely to put forward, in the foreseeable future?


- Top internationally recognised Sponsors/ wealthy owners
- £2.5 million turn over/£1million profit
- The ability to play up to the cap level in SL
- Attendances 3,000+
- Full youth system/8 homegrown players in squad and 11 used in one season. u16’s & u18’s playing in the top groupings and beating almost all before them. Reserve side doing well and a top service area.
- Community set up and player education pathways
- A known average attendance level in SL of 7,000 (That achieved while being relegated)
- Stadium with state of the art facilities such as top class gym/briefing rooms with individual player camera search capability, chill-out rooms, media area for TV and areas for journalists to write reports with online facility and top class physio and treatment rooms – all state of the art. These do not necessarily come with a new stadium; they are very expensive additions to the infrastructure.

Several Super League sides cannot match this, never mind Championship clubs!

I’ll have a bet with you that this will not be bettered on every poin - not just one or two points but every point - by any heartland clubs in the next 3 licence applications from the Championship. Name your price and we’ll arrange a place to hold the cash until 2018 and then donate it to the charity of choice of the one who is right.

Yes I believe it will be beaten..Thats my opinion and I fail to see why you can not accept that? You dont need to have the best application ever submitted, you need the best application for 2012 which you have! So why is it so hard for you to accept that imo, while you are enjoying your SL games that another club from the Championship could submit a stronger application than the one that gained you SL? (should you be chosen)
After all as I said before Widnes have managed to come out of admistration and within 5 years become the most financialy viable team in the Championship, so why can that not happen for other clubs?

By the way the more you rant on the more arrogant you are looking mate.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:21 pm  

anyway thats it as I'm starting to repeat myself...Well done Widnes and if the RFL follow the rules they have laid down it should be a cakewalk to SL for you.
Im sure once back there you will become stronger each year.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:34 pm  

soss wrote:

By the way the more you rant on the more arrogant you are looking mate.

Only because you cannot understand what I am trying to tell you. Your post shows it clearly that you have not understood me at all.

soss wrote:

Yes I believe it will be beaten..Thats my opinion and I fail to see why you can not accept that?

Because if Widnes fail to get a licence for 2012, even though we have the best application – your words not mine – what do you think that will do to potential investors in Championship clubs and fans wanting to believe that there is a genuine pathway to SL?

What message would that send out to clubs about running expensive youth set ups?

They may as well just give up trying.

soss wrote:

You dont need to have the best application ever submitted, you need the best application for 2012 which you have! So why is it so hard for you to accept that imo, you are enjoying your SL games that another club from the Championship could submit a stronger application than the one that gained you SL? (should you be chosen) while After all as I said before Widnes have managed to come out of admistration and within 5 years become the most financialy viable team in the Championship, so why can that not happen for other clubs?

Like I said, should Widnes get a licence, it sets the standard for other clubs to follow, shows that there is actually a pathway to SL for Championship clubs, and may well actually see a club bettering Widnes’ 2012 bid. It’s the impact upon the Championship should Widnes not get the licence that could cause a problem imo.

I’m not saying another CC club couldn’t achieve it, it's just that if the best application, and a dammed good one at that, is rejected then what incentive is there for the Championship clubs if the trap door has clearly been firmly closed behind the heartland clubs for good?

It has nothing to do with arrogance. It will also see the end of Widnes as a future SL club as well.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:01 pm  

The way the Championship is going it is unlikely any club will offer a better bid than Widnes do now. Crowds are only going one way and Widnes' are larger and traditionally have been than all the clubs currently in the league.

Like Pepe said, if we get left out we'll very probably not offer a bid as good as we do now.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:41 pm  

Maximus Decimus wrote:

This makes me laugh.

What most of these numpties don't realise is that if we returned to proper promotion and relegation the situation would be very different. In fact it would massively favour those teams with the best resources and the most money as they would buy the best players and retain full-time squads.

Now let me think, which club have the most money and the best resources in our division?....

The salary cap holds teams like Widnes back in a P & R system and it would be silly to have a system where you promote teams based on results yet with squads costing 1/4 of those that of the league that they would be going up to. The cap is that low that effectively a team with a couple of hundred fans and a semi-rich person could fund a route up to Super League.

This would be real nonsense, so a salary cap and P & R don't go. Without a salary cap and P & R, Widnes would buy their way into SL. With a salary cap and without P & R, Widnes don't top the league but are the best ran club with most youth players in their squad and get into SL that way.

I'd disagree there Max , we have a salary cap , we've had that cap long before the ending of P and R , this year Widnes have not performed on the pitch , now I'd guess that you have spent within 90 % of the salary cap , I'm sure Steve O connor would have prefered and did indeed hope and expect you to have done better in the league , yes you will argue that it doesn't matter and that is true

So with the salary cap we have the only way to do better would be to shall we say ' find a way of paying players differently '

To his credit it would seem that Mr O connor has not gone down that route

At the end of the day we play in a very good even competition , hopefully next year will be the same , but with once again different winners

All the best

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:49 pm  

Starbug wrote:

I'd disagree there Max , we have a salary cap , we've had that cap long before the ending of P and R , this year Widnes have not performed on the pitch , now I'd guess that you have spent within 90 % of the salary cap , I'm sure Steve O connor would have prefered and did indeed hope and expect you to have done better in the league , yes you will argue that it doesn't matter and that is true

So with the salary cap we have the only way to do better would be to shall we say ' find a way of paying players differently '

To his credit it would seem that Mr O connor has not gone down that route

At the end of the day we play in a very good even competition , hopefully next year will be the same , but with once again different winners

All the best

But this is my point, a return to P & R with this salary cap would be ludicrously unfair on a team like Widnes. We've never had P & R where all the teams spend the same amount on their teams. At the end of the day we are a professional sport and a league with promotion and relegation where every team can afford the cap doesn't make any sense. It massively favours teams with low crowds and small revenue and hinders teams with large revenue and bigger crowds.

With the cap at this level we could see Hunslet being promoted next year and Wigan or Leeds getting relegated. Leeds and Wigan would then stand the same 1 in 10 chance of being promoted as the other clubs paying the cap level.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:01 pm  

Maximus Decimus wrote:

But this is my point, a return to P & R with this salary cap would be ludicrously unfair on a team like Widnes. We've never had P & R where all the teams spend the same amount on their teams. At the end of the day we are a professional sport and a league with promotion and relegation where every team can afford the cap doesn't make any sense. It massively favours teams with low crowds and small revenue and hinders teams with large revenue and bigger crowds.

With the cap at this level we could see Hunslet being promoted next year and Wigan or Leeds getting relegated. Leeds and Wigan would then stand the same 1 in 10 chance of being promoted as the other clubs paying the cap level.

So what you are saying is we should get rid of the salary cap in the Championships only ? , then naturally you will want it removing from SL as well ?

I'm sure you remember where that led us ?

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:03 pm  

Starbug wrote:

So what you are saying is we should get rid of the salary cap in the Championships only ? , then naturally you will want it removing from SL as well ?

I'm sure you remember where that led us ?

It's not the same thing, there would be much more riding on the Championship than Super League.

For a start the cap is at a level where not all teams can spend up to it. Also it serves a slightly different purpose. In making the league more equal it strengthens the competition which should raise crowds. This is the current idea behind the Championship model as well. It works when there is only a title to be won. If we had P & R there would be far more riding on it.

I'm not advocating a total abandonment of it, just stating that a £300k cap with P & R would be ludicrous. Why should Widnes with the biggest crowds and most revenue only be allowed to be given an equal chance to be promoted, with all the benefits that brings, as Batley? If people are so bothered about it being about what happens on the pitch then surely clubs would be allowed to use what they have off the pitch to dominate on the pitch. If not we may as well become an amateur sport below SL where nobody pays anything.

I'm stating that most people who suggest a return to P & R haven't actually thought about the reality of what a return would mean, which in all likelihood would be Widnes dominating the division on the pitch.

Re: WIDNES ARE CHEATS!! : Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:25 pm  

Maximus Decimus wrote:

It's not the same thing, there would be much more riding on the Championship than Super League.

For a start the cap is at a level where not all teams can spend up to it. Also it serves a slightly different purpose. In making the league more equal it strengthens the competition which should raise crowds. This is the current idea behind the Championship model as well. It works when there is only a title to be won. If we had P & R there would be far more riding on it.

I'm not advocating a total abandonment of it, just stating that a £300k cap with P & R would be ludicrous. Why should Widnes with the biggest crowds and most revenue only be allowed to be given an equal chance to be promoted, with all the benefits that brings, as Batley? If people are so bothered about it being about what happens on the pitch then surely clubs would be allowed to use what they have off the pitch to dominate on the pitch. If not we may as well become an amateur sport below SL where nobody pays anything.

I'm stating that most people who suggest a return to P & R haven't actually thought about the reality of what a return would mean, which in all likelihood would be Widnes dominating the division on the pitch.

Why should Leeds and W1g4n with the biggest crowds and most revenue only be allowed to be given an equal chance to to be the champions, as Salford

It works both ways Max

Do we really want a situation as we now have in football , where if one club can for whatever reason attract a billionaire businessman , they can buy a team of internationals , and dominate the competition , we are just now in both SL and the Championships having a situation where this year clubs that have not finished top are now doing so , last years winners in both competitions have finished 4 th this year ?