Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:03 pm  

neil_w wrote:

Chris, Smith was sent off for having a pop or giving verbals to the touch judge whilst Marsh was taking the kick not for the kick. I don't think the ref or TJ's saw the kick, the ref pulled Smith & Tomkins out I believe to tell them of for the melee they caused after the try was scored. I'm being generous here and saying none of them saw the kick because I can't believe they saw a player kick another player and did nothing about it.

It's possible not one of them saw it mate but after yesterday's performance I just don't see any point giving them the benefit of the doubt. I can totally believe they saw it and did nothing for whatever reason.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:07 pm  

JWarriors wrote:

1. It's not an excuse for the result last night. I've said in another thread that you deserved the win not a draw. I'm clearly stating that it's not unusual for us to fail to win the opening game of the season, and I think we will still be there or thereabouts come the end of the season.

2. You've said why look past the Smith/Tomkins incident. In what way is taking a (yes) stupid, childish, petulant swipe at someone more 'thuggish' than a punch to the jaw which knocks the player out and gives him concussion? Was the Smith kick worse in the name of fairness? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Should he be banned? Yes. But I'd argue what Smith did didn't and couldn't injure a player. What Ah Van did knocked Charnley out and gave him concussion. Afain, the scuffle in the middle of the field was started by O'Carroll, not a Wigan player.
We are ill disciplined, we lie on etc.But from last night, we were no more 'thuggish' than Widnes. There is a difference between being penalised for being ill-disciplined, and being penalised for thuggish or dangerous play.

Intent. That's the difference. Watched Ah Van incident about 10 times and if you think there's intent there to knock Charnley out then you don't know much about RL and have certainly never played the game, remember Ah Van is scrabbling back so it's a bad read but an attempt to stop him scoring as he was 5 metres from scoring, had to be force and he got it wrong. Yellow card offence.

Matty Smith intending to kick someone, whether injurying Hanbury or not is irrelevant. Pre-meditated outburst, kicking an opponent which is not in the act of the game (like a last ditch tackle is). Tomkins re-action was just moronic, and has Wane's mentality all over it. Really disappointing to see.

We will agree to disagree about thuggish behaviour, Liam Farrell in particular (needs to get back to what he does best) was full of 'dangerous play' as you put it, just ask Joe Mellor.

You don't think it was, the rest of the league does.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:19 pm  

AJ Viking wrote:

Intent. That's the difference. Watched Ah Van incident about 10 times and if you think there's intent there to knock Charnley out then you don't know much about RL and have certainly never played the game, remember Ah Van is scrabbling back so it's a bad read but an attempt to stop him scoring as he was 5 metres from scoring, had to be force and he got it wrong. Yellow card offence.

Matty Smith intending to kick someone, whether injurying Hanbury or not is irrelevant. Pre-meditated outburst, kicking an opponent which is not in the act of the game (like a last ditch tackle is). Tomkins re-action was just moronic, and has Wane's mentality all over it. Really disappointing to see.

We will agree to disagree about thuggish behaviour, Liam Farrell in particular (needs to get back to what he does best) was full of 'dangerous play' as you put it, just ask Joe Mellor.

You don't think it was, the rest of the league does.

Pretty much the rest of the league judging by the reactions I've read everywhere. Wigan really have to do better than that. When they threw the ball about in small spells they looked every bit the champions elect and certain forwards were giving a great showing (Tautai) but they've been let down massively both by ill discipline and losing their head.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:14 pm  

wigan play thugby end of. Mellor was smashed a few times off the ball by the cowardly Farrell who never got involved when the scuffles broke out when it was man to man, some enforcer he is turning out to be. will the pies ever get penalised for not playing the ball off the mark because that's how they make most of their yardage. Smith and Tompkins should get bans but I doubt red hall do not want to upset the applecart.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:01 pm  

Chris Dalton wrote:

every bit the champions elect and certain forwards were giving a great showing (Tautai) but they've been let down massively both by ill discipline and losing their head.

Agree thought Tautai and Sutton were excellent for Wigan.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:15 pm  

AJ Viking wrote:

Intent. That's the difference. Watched Ah Van incident about 10 times and if you think there's intent there to knock Charnley out then you don't know much about RL and have certainly never played the game, remember Ah Van is scrabbling back so it's a bad read but an attempt to stop him scoring as he was 5 metres from scoring, had to be force and he got it wrong. Yellow card offence.

Whether or not there was intent it's still a red card, if you spear tackle someone, accidental or not it's dangerous play and a red. Let's be serious, his fist was clenched when he swung the arm around, dangerous play. Intent shouldn't make a difference to whether or not it's a red card, just the length of the subsequent ban incurred. It was dangerous play (accidental or not) and Ah Van was punished appropriately for that dangerous play.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:02 pm  

AJ Viking wrote:

Intent. That's the difference. Watched Ah Van incident about 10 times and if you think there's intent there to knock Charnley out then you don't know much about RL and have certainly never played the game, remember Ah Van is scrabbling back so it's a bad read but an attempt to stop him scoring as he was 5 metres from scoring, had to be force and he got it wrong. Yellow card offence.

Matty Smith intending to kick someone, whether injurying Hanbury or not is irrelevant. Pre-meditated outburst, kicking an opponent which is not in the act of the game (like a last ditch tackle is). Tomkins re-action was just moronic, and has Wane's mentality all over it. Really disappointing to see.

We will agree to disagree about thuggish behaviour, Liam Farrell in particular (needs to get back to what he does best) was full of 'dangerous play' as you put it, just ask Joe Mellor.

You don't think it was, the rest of the league does.

The defending player has a duty of care to carry out the tackle safely. If they fail to do so they can and do get penalised within the laws of the game. Ah Van closed his fist and launched it in then direction of a fellow player's head and connected with it, for which he was punished. I'd have given him yellow but it was 50/50 between yellow and red and then ref has to make a judgment call.

What's notable in the aftermath of these events is the way Tomkins and Smith have been roundly condemned by Wigan fans yet you're falling over yourself to excuse Ah Van.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:37 pm  

TheElectricGlidingWarrior wrote:

The defending player has a duty of care to carry out the tackle safely. If they fail to do so they can and do get penalised within the laws of the game. Ah Van closed his fist and launched it in then direction of a fellow player's head and connected with it, for which he was punished. I'd have given him yellow but it was 50/50 between yellow and red and then ref has to make a judgment call.

What's notable in the aftermath of these events is the way Tomkins and Smith have been roundly condemned by Wigan fans yet you're falling over yourself to excuse Ah Van.

There is no moral equivalence here. Either Ah Van was wrong or he wasn't. What Smith and Tomkins did later (which is undoubtedly a negative) does not make one iota of difference as to whether Ah Van's was. We can debate that seperately, and we are.

Everyone agrees it was a foul, undoubtedly so, and some are even saying a yellow card although considering it was the first offence I think that would have been harsh. You see these challenges all the time, they never result in a red. We've been punished above what usually happens.

There is no ambiguity in the offences we saw later. Smith kicked a player running away from him out of play, on purpose, for no intent other than he lost his temper and wanted to injure. Tomkins, perhaps mistakenly trying to douse a situation caused by the violence of his team mate, grappled a completely innocent player to the floor when he was unawares. I think that's a lesser offence but not an innocent one. There's no debate to be had there, it's pure violence. With Ah Van's intent is everything, and a lot are agreeing there was no intent to cause harm. Misjudged tackle, foul.

And let's be clear. If he hadn't been sent off, people wouldn't be quite as agitated by the shoddy, shoddy discipline showed by Wigan on a few occasions yesterday.

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:48 pm  

Chris Dalton sums this up perfectly. Send his post to the RFL as official report!

Re: Widnes v Wigan : Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:49 pm  

Chris Dalton wrote:

There is no moral equivalence here.

Who said there was?

Either Ah Van was wrong or he wasn't. What Smith and Tomkins did later (which is undoubtedly a negative) does not make one iota of difference as to whether Ah Van's was. We can debate that seperately, and we are.

Again, who said anything to the contrary? You're arguing against points nobody has made.

Everyone agrees it was a foul, undoubtedly so, and some are even saying a yellow card although considering it was the first offence I think that would have been harsh. You see these challenges all the time, they never result in a red. We've been punished above what usually happens.

There is no ambiguity in the offences we saw later. Smith kicked a player running away from him out of play, on purpose, for no intent other than he lost his temper and wanted to injure. Tomkins, perhaps mistakenly trying to douse a situation caused by the violence of his team mate, grappled a completely innocent player to the floor when he was unawares. I think that's a lesser offence but not an innocent one. There's no debate to be had there, it's pure violence. With Ah Van's intent is everything, and a lot are agreeing there was no intent to cause harm. Misjudged tackle, foul.

And let's be clear. If he hadn't been sent off, people wouldn't be quite as agitated by the shoddy, shoddy discipline showed by Wigan on a few occasions yesterday.

Did you click the wrong quote button?