Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:02 pm  

The Dentist Wilf wrote:

There will be no relegation so its as has been said a moot point and if there is the game will tear itself apart arguing about changing the goal posts.

However to say we would be better off relegated is ludicrous. I can assure everyone who wants to listen that I have discussed the possibility of relegation with three different CE's going back to James Rule and a couple of owners as well and they were all unanimously of the same opinion, that relegation would see the club fold. Simply because we have no material assets to fall back on, no ground t borrow against and no bottomless pit of money. Although I concede that I guess a rich owner appearing out of the ether could solve that, (We wish) But we simply could not afford to play at the Stadium it would not be sustainable anymore, the overheads are too high, as are if you like the cost of even opening the turnstiles. . People in fairyland might think they wouldn't, but gates would halve even with our great supporter base and there simply wouldn't be the TV money, sponsorship income, local sponsors or Sky money to cover those costs. So as well as not having the money to build a team to get back up, we would have no where to play in Hull.

The fact that everyone sort of knows but doesn't want to admit, or even discuss is that this demise of ours this year has been planned. Someone somewhere has decided that at the expense of the love of the fans, (or as the great Hutch once described us the cash cows of the club) we would under invest, save cash and operate on a shoe string in 2024, because thanks to IMG there was no jeopody out there and so we could. Bugger the embarrasment heartbreak and ignominy we are all feeling. Place the blame at whoever's door you like but in my opinion we have to face that there has been a strategy here and one we have only tried to address with signings etc once the wheel had well and truly come off and the situation was irreversible.

Agree Wilf, as always!

Whilst it is a slightly irrelevant point, as there is no relegation in 2024 (at least at the time of writing) if, for the sake of argument, it was on the table, then our situation today would be far closer to Bradford (2014) than it would to either rovers (2016) or Wakefield (2023). Our circumstances are completely different to those two clubs and the inherent background problems would most likely make our continued survival almost insurmountable.

The chief problem would unquestionably be the annual rent we have to pay on the stadium. The only solution in that instance, that I could see, would be for the SMC to agree a 12-month deferral on that year's rent, to be paid back over an agreed period within the coming years, presuming we would managed to be promoted back up to SL at the first attempt, which might not necessarily be a given (who knows which players, and how many, would seek gainful employment elsewhere?).

Even if that where to be the case, we would then find ourselves hampered for a number of years with this deferred loan waiting to be paid off, with the SMC constantly breathing down our necks, in effect the covid loan problems all over again.

Far from 're-energising' the club, as some have remarked, relegation for Hull Fc would instead be another massive downward step to possible permanent obscurity. We simply cannot afford to go down that path, but unless various people at our club wake up and start to make some correct decisions, that may become an increasing possibility. We have been relegated before in our past, but that was in different circumstances and in far simpler times (you went down, you came back up!).

My big worry is if, during the coming winter, the decision is made to scrap the IMG ratings and return to promotion-relegation in some form, be it one down - one up or the reintroduction of the middle eight play-offs.
Certainly, if the middle-eights were in place this year I really would not fancy our chances of coming out alive, such is the state we find ourselves in right now.

Still, like we've said, it's an irrelevant point so we have no need to worry about it, none at all!!!

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:10 pm  

DSJ1983 wrote:

I agree there’s definitely been a planned ‘underspend’ this year, I would hope it was with with the intention of paying towards the Covid loans or whatever else we owe.

We know anyways as fact we went way under the cap because Sky exposed it.

I think what everyone’s missing though is I genuinely think AP had faith in TS and thought the signings of young or something to prove players like Pele, Okunbor, Brown, Tindall, Walker, Ashworth, Smith etc would have us punching above our weight like Salford. They got it spectacularly wrong but I don’t think they wrote off the season off at the start, for me the bigger throwing in of the towel was in the August transfer deadline not making bigger moves to bring at least someone like Cust in early. For me that was unforgivable and has resulted in performances like last night.

Hull FC chairman Adam Pearson has suggested that he could take Sky Sports to court in response to the broadcaster’s recent segment in which they estimated the salary spent by all of the 12 teams in Super League.

Ahead of the clash between Leeds Rhinos and Warrington Wolves, Sky Sports host Brian Carney revealed that those working behind the scenes had put together an “estimate” on each side’s salary spend for the 2024 season.

Carney even stated: “It’s more than a guess, it’s a lot of research come into this believe it or not.”
Despite that, FC chairman Adam Pearson clearly wasn’t happy with the estimation and has since rubbished Sky’s claim that Hull FC were spending just £1.8 million a year.

Speaking on BBC Humberside, he explained: “If somebody who wants to invest at a reasonable level, we’re not talking big money at Hull FC, then we could push and push and push on the player roster to get back to top five. We are, despite what everybody says, spending £2.35 million a year.

“Whether that is being well spent is a better question than asking why we’re lower than that. Sky (Sports) guessing that we’re at £1.8 million cap spend, if I were to take them to a court of law, it would take about 30 minutes for them to be found guilty.”

Adam Pearson’s tell-all interview came following the sacking of Tony Smith with plenty of Hull FC fans wanting answers about how the season could have possibly started so badly and what the next plans were.

Much of the discussion centred around the club’s finances though and when pushed further on the claim that his side are spending £2.35 million, Pearson clarified and accepted that the issue has been how the money has been spent as opposed to how much.

He said: “We’ve spent the money, but this year, have we spent it wisely, would be a better question.

“I must not be very concise tonight, to clarify we are at salary cap. We paid £2.35 million pounds wages this year. I’m not sure why there’s so much emphasis on that question when the real question should be is why haven’t we spent it very well?”

If anyone was still in doubt over the matter, Pearson even laid down the gauntlet for fans to even check the books in the second instance that he sent a strong message to the FC faithful

“If anybody wants to question that any further I think the best thing I do is they can come down to the office and I can show them the pay cap,” Pearson argued.

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:40 pm  

DSJ1983 wrote:

I agree there’s definitely been a planned ‘underspend’ this year, I would hope it was with with the intention of paying towards the Covid loans or whatever else we owe. We know anyways as fact we went way under the cap because Sky exposed it.

I think what everyone’s missing though is I genuinely think AP had faith in TS and thought the signings of young or something to prove players like Pele, Okunbor, Brown, Tindall, Walker, Ashworth, Smith etc would have us punching above our weight like Salford. They got it spectacularly wrong but I don’t think they wrote off the season off at the start, for me the bigger throwing in of the towel was in the August transfer deadline not making bigger moves to bring at least someone like Cust in early. For me that was unforgivable and has resulted in performances like last night.

I would agree with you, up to a point.
There was clearly a decision taken to reduce squad investment in 2023/24 with the expressed aim of reducing certain long-standing debt, thereby putting the club on a sounder financial footing going forward. They were helped in this aspect by having the safety net of 'no-relegation' underneath us, thereby removing any consequences in that direction.

I would agree also that I too don't believe the club simply wrote the season off right from the word go. I suspect Pearson/Clark/Smith probably thought the players we acquired last winter would make us a reasonably competitive outfit, whilst not exactly challenging for honours, a water-treading season in effect.
Hindsight has shown that not to be the case, obviously! The majority of those recruited for this season did not live up to even a modest billing with most being moved on elsewhere.

But I still think that the squad, as poor as it turned out to be, should still have been better than what we have had to witness over the past seven months. We should not be sat here in early September ruminating over a record of W3 - L22 (plus one cup hammering). We really should have witnessed at least a handful of victories over the course of the year, around 7/8 wins which would have put us roughly alongside Hudds/Cas. In that scenario I think most of us on here would have accepted that is, unfortunately, where we are at in 2024.

In short, we ended up with a poorly assembled squad which, in turn, has managed to underperform even against the low expectation most of us had at the start of the year. No wonder we have a record of 3 wins in 26 games this year!

The reasons why they have underperformed so spectacularly are, in my opinion, a direct consequence of the way the club is being run from top to bottom, as expanded upon at length in earlier posts! Until those root causes are systematically addressed, we will simply repeat the errors of recent years over and over again like some ever-repeating groundhog day.
Someone, probably a combination of Myler-Cartwright has to break this cycle and attitude and fairly sharpish or this club will simply continue to drift ever downwards and backwards.
We are stood on the cliff-edge right now, one more step backwards and it's........

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 1:57 pm  

Marcus's Bicycle wrote:

Speaking on BBC Humberside, he explained: “If somebody who wants to invest at a reasonable level, we’re not talking big money at Hull FC, then we could push and push and push on the player roster to get back to top five. We are, despite what everybody says, spending £2.35 million a year.

“Whether that is being well spent is a better question than asking why we’re lower than that. Sky (Sports) guessing that we’re at £1.8 million cap spend, if I were to take them to a court of law, it would take about 30 minutes for them to be found guilty.”

Adam Pearson’s tell-all interview came following the sacking of Tony Smith with plenty of Hull FC fans wanting answers about how the season could have possibly started so badly and what the next plans were.

Much of the discussion centred around the club’s finances though and when pushed further on the claim that his side are spending £2.35 million, Pearson clarified and accepted that the issue has been how the money has been spent as opposed to how much.

He said: “We’ve spent the money, but this year, have we spent it wisely, would be a better question.

“I must not be very concise tonight, to clarify we are at salary cap.

We paid £2.35 million pounds wages this year. I’m not sure why there’s so much emphasis on that question when the real question should be is why haven’t we spent it very well?”

If anyone was still in doubt over the matter, Pearson even laid down the gauntlet for fans to even check the books in the second instance that he sent a strong message to the FC faithful

“If anybody wants to question that any further I think the best thing I do is they can come down to the office and I can show them the pay cap,” Pearson argued.

As Pearson states, whilst our current cap-spend is almost certainly stopping us from challenging at the top-four level, there is no reason why we couldn't have assembled a reasonably decent mid-table squad capable of being around 5th-7th over recent seasons. The reason we haven't is solely down to a series of mistakes and errors over a number of years resulting in this car-crash of a year.

Lack of cash isn't why we now have a record of 3 wins from 26 games this year, it's the fact that we have become such a badly-run club which has brought us to this depressing level.

Also, what will Pearson do if ten thousand of us turn up at his office asking if we can take a look at the books as he mentions above!!

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:09 pm  

BP1 wrote:

As Pearson states, whilst our current cap-spend is almost certainly stopping us from challenging at the top-four level, there is no reason why we couldn't have assembled a reasonably decent mid-table squad capable of being around 5th-7th over recent seasons. The reason we haven't is solely down to a series of mistakes and errors over a number of years resulting in this car-crash of a year.

Lack of cash isn't why we now have a record of 3 wins from 26 games this year, it's the fact that we have become such a badly-run club which has brought us to this depressing level.

Also, what will Pearson do if ten thousand of us turn up at his office asking if we can take a look at the books as he mentions above!!

I remember the interview, what that snippet misses out is literally after that last statement AP backtracked and said something along the lines of “well obviously you can’t come and look at the books but we are spending 2.35 million” or something to that effect.

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:08 pm  

Steve0 wrote:

If we got relegated, we'd lose the players we're trying to build around, Charles, Martin, Barron etc and just end up with the players no other super league team wants to pick from us in Fash, Lane, Briscoe, Chamberlain, Smith, Tindall and the like, we'd struggle the lower attendances and lack of sky money, it'd be a complete disaster

irespective of the signings for next season and none are what you call exciting we are going to struggle anyway with lower attendances.
The club have blown the opportunity they had which was to bring in two or three quality excting players and have have gone for average plodders
The signings of Sezer and Rapana are desperation having been turned down by what we believe are several other targets which makes me believe this so called takeover doesnt have real money behind it if it does happen.
Signing Rapana as a marquee doesnt make sense.How many people on here have said they wouldnt spend marquee money on a winger,and he is a wing currently playing full back.
We are covered in both positions so for me its desperation to bring in a name and towards the end of his playing career
Wouldnt surprise me to see the proposed investor or new owner pull out as this 8000 plus season ticket holders they are expecting next season will be vastly reduced as too many fans have lost interest in the club and the game in general

[Chris71]

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:39 pm  

All the talk of relegation etc is just a waste of time and energy as the facts are there is NO relegation for 2024 all voted for and ratified by the clubs and the RFL. Whether we have used that safety net to put out a sub standard squad is another matter and discussion altogether.
Relegation would be an unthinkable situation and would ultimately see the end of this club. There is no way the club could survice relegation as the deal at the stadium costs alone would be unaffordable.

Degsy is just an absolute eejit and his public rants do nothing for the game just put further embarrassment on the sport. For all his passion Degsy is a prime example of why the sport is on its booty as the owners do not look at the bigger picture, if they did we’d have had a 14 team SL a while ago.

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:51 pm  

Chris71 wrote:

All the talk of relegation etc is just a waste of time and energy as the facts are there is NO relegation for 2024 all voted for and ratified by the clubs and the RFL. Whether we have used that safety net to put out a sub standard squad is another matter and discussion altogether.
Relegation would be an unthinkable situation and would ultimately see the end of this club. There is no way the club could survice relegation as the deal at the stadium costs alone would be unaffordable.

Degsy is just an absolute eejit and his public rants do nothing for the game just put further embarrassment on the sport. For all his passion Degsy is a prime example of why the sport is on its booty as the owners do not look at the bigger picture, if they did we’d have had a 14 team SL a while ago.

The bloke is an egotist. Marwan Koukash dressed up as Bet Lynch.

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 3:55 pm  

ComeOnYouUll wrote:

The bloke is an egotist. Marwan Koukash dressed up as Bet Lynch.

He's like a 5 year old who has lost his favourite toy

Re: Leeds Rhinos - Away : Sat Sep 07, 2024 4:52 pm  

Rich people and domination where it ever so, they think that money gets you your own way, he's a bit too arrogant for me or indeed as has been said the good name of the game. Let's face it he voted for the IMG stuff now when it doesn't suit him cos someone has bagged his prize possession from under his nose, he's shouting his mouth off about how what he voted for is all wrong, just to get at those who have put one over on him. What a dick.