: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:23 am  

Giantscorpio wrote:

That point totally contradicts itself, rewarding commercial success means either letting the better supported or wealthy clubs spend more.

Which in turn would force all the clubs to strive for better comercial success, you would still have limits in place regards senior squad numbers so 1 team would be unable to buy all the players it wanted.

Also point tonight only recently have the clubs all been able to spend to the full amount of the cap, when others have been restricted on spend due to there turnover and we still have a more competative league.

Your views on any team in the top 8 beating the Penrith team are also way off the mark in my opinion.

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:03 am  

jonh wrote:

Also point tonight only recently have the clubs all been able to spend to the full amount of the cap, when others have been restricted on spend due to there turnover and we still have a more competative league.

The limit still meant that the clubs with superior commercial revenue and wealthy backers did not blow away the clubs whose spend was limited to 50% of their income. If the limit was removed, the disparity of the big clubs spending power and the smaller clubs would become greater leading to the better players automatically gravitating to the clubs who can offer them more money. I know this happens anyway but under the current regulations top clubs are unable to hoard the better players. Subsequently these players are spread more evenly across the league which should in turn drive upon standards. I’m sure the Leeds players have to raise their game to a higher level against St Helens then they do Wakefield. The problem is that they only have to do this 3 – 4 times a season. When this is happening every week then the playing standards will only improve. It still has some way to go but I think that is a good thing.

I still think an ultimate cap is needed however the academy ruling is a good one. This, in theory, gives an advantage to clubs who put the effort into developing young talent and hiders those who chose to ignore the junior side. This does indeed give them a larger salary cap but is proportionate to the how many home grown players they have in their squad. .

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:27 am  

jonh wrote:

I agree with the first part of the statement in bold but not the second part i do not think the game is better for it, as i think the standards generally have slipped.

I do not claim to have the answers (which is unusual ) but i think if the cap was based on a clubs comercial activity and the inovation this would be good for the game, i reiterate Wigan would not be in the top 2 clubs if this were the case.

What it would force clubs to do is fight tooth and nail for every penny to increase there ability to recruit the more expensive players, which as we know does not guarentee success anyway. Remember the cap has not always been fair and was conected to turnover up until this season I think, and still the traditionally "poorer" clubs have provided a more competative league.

Retaining the cap removing the ceiling would force clubs to fight to enhance there turnover.

Allowing dispensation for Academy players who make the first team would focus the teams even more on youth development and a dispensation for an Academy player who makes an International selection for England/GB would add to the ability to retain them at the clubs they are products of.

I would also like to see overseas players wages count extra towards the cap maybe 110% of there actual wage to ensure only the very best were recruited and considered worth the spend.

I think what you might be witnessing is the spreading out of the best talent. Let's take Westerman for example. There is no doubt that, 10 years ago, JW would have been lined up for a 'big-4' club right now. He hasn't, in fact he has a long-ish term deal at Cas' - and I hope he stays there for a long time. This is just an example of the fact the talent pool is now spread wider amongst the clubs.

However, despite there being MORE decent players being produced, there are fewer clubs with a monopoly of the talent and therefore fewer games of, say, the quality of last weeks Saints-Leeds game. The up side is that there is more and more chance of these clubs being beaten by other clubs in the comp.

Although jonh and others decry the loss of more 'big' games, the truth is that the majority of games 10 years ago were either predictable (big club versus small club) or of poorer quality (I would think of our team circa 2001 for example compared to now). Time dulls the memory and the games that we do tend to remember are mostly the better ones and I would suggest that there is some selective memory going on here for some.

The game is improving - I have no doubt about that at all.

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:39 am  

TRB wrote:

snip.

3 words

NAIL ON HEAD

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:20 pm  

TRB wrote:

I think what you might be witnessing is the spreading out of the best talent. Let's take Westerman for example. There is no doubt that, 10 years ago, JW would have been lined up for a 'big-4' club right now. He hasn't, in fact he has a long-ish term deal at Cas' - and I hope he stays there for a long time. This is just an example of the fact the talent pool is now spread wider amongst the clubs.

However, despite there being MORE decent players being produced, there are fewer clubs with a monopoly of the talent and therefore fewer games of, say, the quality of last weeks Saints-Leeds game. The up side is that there is more and more chance of these clubs being beaten by other clubs in the comp.

Although jonh and others decry the loss of more 'big' games, the truth is that the majority of games 10 years ago were either predictable (big club versus small club) or of poorer quality (I would think of our team circa 2001 for example compared to now). Time dulls the memory and the games that we do tend to remember are mostly the better ones and I would suggest that there is some selective memory going on here for some.

The game is improving - I have no doubt about that at all.

i cant agree we are producing more players hence the amount of oversea players in the league

and also if you think back 5 or6 years there were 6 teams who were serious contenders thats 1/2 the league, now there are 2 or 1/7

the sc has levelled the game to the middle, it has brought some teams who were excelling closer to those who were struggling and they have met in the middle and we are left with a league where few excel few struggle and for the most part everyone is average,

plodding along no longer means left behind,

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:57 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

i cant agree we are producing more players hence the amount of oversea players in the league

and also if you think back 5 or6 years there were 6 teams who were serious contenders thats 1/2 the league, now there are 2 or 1/7

the sc has levelled the game to the middle, it has brought some teams who were excelling closer to those who were struggling and they have met in the middle and we are left with a league where few excel few struggle and for the most part everyone is average,

plodding along no longer means left behind,

Really?

Leeds, Bradford and Saints, and a Wigan side permitted to spend over the cap. I make that four.

….and the reasons behind the fall away of the Bulls and Wigan are well documented, legal issues and mismanagement respectively. I don't think this has anything to do with he SC bringing down standards.

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:01 pm  

Khlav Kalash wrote:

Really?

Leeds, Bradford and Saints, and a Wigan side permitted to spend over the cap. I make that four.

….and the reasons behind the fall away of the Bulls and Wigan are well documented, legal issues and mismanagement respectively. I don't think this has anything to do with he SC bringing down standards.

and hull and wire

anything but a third consecutive leeds v saints gf would be a huge shock this year

that wasnt the case 5 years ago, and it is my opinion this leeds side isnt as good as the 04 one

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:07 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

and hull and wire

anything but a third consecutive leeds v saints gf would be a huge shock this year

that wasnt the case 5 years ago, and it is my opinion this leeds side isnt as good as the 04 one

Your could argue Hull have suffered because of injury for the past couple of years and will be there or there about this time and Wire flattered to device back then as they are doing now.

Bradford made the GF 5 years running up until 2005.

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:14 pm  

SmokeyTA wrote:

and also if you think back 5 or6 years there were 6 teams who were serious contenders thats 1/2 the league, now there are 2 or 1/7

SmokeyTA wrote:

and hull and wire

That's one strange world you're living in.

SmokeyTA wrote:

anything but a third consecutive leeds v saints gf would be a huge shock this year

SmokeyTA wrote:

Predictions

GF Leeds V Les Catalans, Leeds win

: Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:17 pm  

Khlav Kalash wrote:

Your could argue Hull have suffered because of injury for the past couple of years and will be there or there about this time and Wire flattered to device back then as they are doing now.

Bradford made the GF 5 years running up until 2005.

they did, which is kind of my point, the sc is no guarantee of competitiveness, yet it does limit the quality in the league

there are much better ways to make the league competitive than this cap