Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 5:44 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

Only if you're solely blaming Woodward. I'm simply saying that he should be included in any criticism of Moyes, as the root of the problems were not addressed in the summer, and from the outside it is impossible to know how much was down to which of the two so you can't really pick one out to criticise for it.

I don't remember the MDs of Manchester getting gushing praise for Man United's success over the years. I don't remember anyone praising Everton's MD for his work in keeping Everton in the PL. But when Man United hit the wall after appointing Moyes it's time to question the work of the main man behind the scenes? I just don't buy it.

But also don't forget that Fellaini had a release clause of about £22m at that stage, so they possibly would have had to. £17-18m for a 29-year-old Baines with Oviedo already there and a couple of months to spend the money could well have appealed a lot.

I think Everton losing a manager to Man United for nothing, plus losing their "best" player due to a release clause means they don't allow Baines to go unless there's an element of extra compensation for the other two.

I don't think Everton would have flogged Fellaini on the last day without Fellaini asking them to let him go. Don't forget Moyes's utterly pathetic "If I was still Everton manager and players were asking me to let them go to Man United I wouldn't be able to stand in their way".

Firstly, I'm not saying they should have signed Fellaini.

I do think that they had other players that they wanted before Fellaini but because they didn't happen they ended up grabbing him.

The level of doubt about them in the summer was huge, so IMO they needed to get some business done quickly to show that they were still (at least intent on being) top dogs. When they didn't, they effectively just strengthened the impression in prospective signings' minds that their star was on the fall, and the longer it went on the harder they were making it for themselves.

In the summer David Moyes was The Chosen One. Jose Mourinho was mortified about not getting the United job and spending all day calling the reception at Old Trafford and crying on the phone because they'd picked Moyes ahead of him.

There were doubting voices about Moyes. I always thought it was a terrible appointment and even I've been shocked about it turning out this bad. But most of the noises from Manchester were that they were happy that they'd got Moyes and they'd rejected Mourinho to get him.

Secondly, Manchester City showed how not spending comparatively much after a title win can blow up in your face. This time around they spent over £90m, Chelsea brought back Mourinho and spent £55-60m, Spurs £105m (albeit losing Bale), Liverpool about £50m and Arsenal bagged one of the players Man Utd should have been after for £42m. Having just lost the biggest asset at the club, the best player of his generation retiring, and arguably their best remaining player seeming to want out as well as age catching up with several others, if they genuinely didn't think they needed to spend big with the squad they had then they're morons.

When United sold Ronaldo to Madrid they pretty much banked the money and made do with small scale replacements.
If they're not willing to spend fees they get to replace an on field talent like Ronaldo then it's not likely they're going to be overly willing to spend 80m adding to a title winning team, especially when they've appointed a manager like Moyes who has virtually no experience of top level players.

And while Man United are utterly terrible right now, they are not anywhere near as bad as they look right now. I think they would have fully expected Moyes to deliver a problem free top 4 finish without any new signings.

Also, looking at things now, how much would missing the Champions League cost them? Along with the knock-on effect on recruitment/retention/transfer fees? Not spending enough last summer will cost them at least as much money IMO, whether it be directly in terms of prize money/CL revenue, or indirectly in having to offer bigger wages and clubs raising their prices as Man Utd get increasingly in need/desperate for quality players.

Daniel Levy was a genius before the season started with the awesome way he managed to spend the Bale money. Right now he's a moron because most of the money has been wasted and he's having to appoint Tim Sherwood as manager because AVB's been canned.

The only signing United made in the summer was Fellaini. According to most United fans opinions I've read, he's been a bust and simply not Man Utd standard. So they've possibly blown 10m on that wrong signing when loss and wages are considered.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 7:20 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

Secondly, Manchester City showed how not spending comparatively much after a title win can blow up in your face. This time around they spent over £90m,

The main lesson that City learned was the need to get the groundwork done before the transfer window opens. In 2012 the club wasted too much time chasing Cavani, RVP, Martinez and De Rossi when it was obvious that those players weren't interested. After running out of time to sign players they really wanted they ended up having to make do with Garcia and Sinclair. This year the business was done early. The £90m is a tad misleading since the signings were partially funded by the sales of Balotelli and Tevez. Apparently the combined wages of Negredo, Fernandhino, Navas and Jovetic are less than half what City were paying Tevez and Balotelli.

United were always going to struggle with Moyes starting relatively late and insisting on going for players that he was very familiar with.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:36 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I don't remember the MDs of Manchester getting gushing praise for Man United's success over the years. I don't remember anyone praising Everton's MD for his work in keeping Everton in the PL. But when Man United hit the wall after appointing Moyes it's time to question the work of the main man behind the scenes? I just don't buy it.

Kenwright's been brilliant for Everton.

But you're still missing my point. I'm not saying it's Woodward's fault and not Moyes'. I'm saying that it's one of them, or a combination of them, but from the outside we can't possibly know, so when criticising their appalling summer recruitment you have to include both and judge them as a pair, because between them they made a hash of it. Had they not both been new to their roles there would be some sort of track record to make an educated guess as to where the likely fault was, but seeing as neither have any experience of negotiating big money buys it's practically impossible to say because we simply don't know enough.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I think Everton losing a manager to Man United for nothing, plus losing their "best" player due to a release clause means they don't allow Baines to go unless there's an element of extra compensation for the other two.

£18m for a 29-year-old fullback would be a great price for 'extra compensation'.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I don't think Everton would have flogged Fellaini on the last day without Fellaini asking them to let him go. Don't forget Moyes's utterly pathetic "If I was still Everton manager and players were asking me to let them go to Man United I wouldn't be able to stand in their way".

Moyes has come out with some absolute drivel since taking the job, you won't get any argument from me there.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I do think that they had other players that they wanted before Fellaini but because they didn't happen they ended up grabbing him.

I think that's very possible.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

In the summer David Moyes was The Chosen One. Jose Mourinho was mortified about not getting the United job and spending all day calling the reception at Old Trafford and crying on the phone because they'd picked Moyes ahead of him.

There were doubting voices about Moyes. I always thought it was a terrible appointment and even I've been shocked about it turning out this bad. But most of the noises from Manchester were that they were happy that they'd got Moyes and they'd rejected Mourinho to get him.

Regardless of how Moyes has done so far, I still don't personally think that Mourinho would have been a good choice for Man Utd.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

When United sold Ronaldo to Madrid they pretty much banked the money and made do with small scale replacements.
If they're not willing to spend fees they get to replace an on field talent like Ronaldo then it's not likely they're going to be overly willing to spend 80m adding to a title winning team, especially when they've appointed a manager like Moyes who has virtually no experience of top level players.

But the vital differences are that they had a better overall squad then, a better manager then, and less serious rivals then. The time has come around again that the Man Utd team needs rebuilding. Clearly, Ferguson didn't have the appetite to do it any more (no criticism at all there, he's done his stint). Whoever was to take on the job was always going to require some big money to do it.

Try not to fixate on the £80m, too. I only picked that out as the likely money they would have needed to get their targets, because the fact that they missed out on who they openly admitted wanting was a problem on two counts; they didn't strengthen the team; and they made themselves look weaker in the transfer market.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

And while Man United are utterly terrible right now, they are not anywhere near as bad as they look right now. I think they would have fully expected Moyes to deliver a problem free top 4 finish without any new signings.

The real difference between this season and last season is that they're tending to get the results their performances deserve, whereas last year they kept grinding out results regardless. Top 4 should have been possible, but not probable without recruitment.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Daniel Levy was a genius before the season started with the awesome way he managed to spend the Bale money. Right now he's a moron because most of the money has been wasted and he's having to appoint Tim Sherwood as manager because AVB's been canned.

Levy did go about his spending in a smart way by doing it before Bale went, because they would have probably been made to overspend even further if teams had seen them coming with the Bale money. It was common knowledge what Man Utd needed/still need, and even who they wanted, so they were never going to get them making the kind of offers they did and I really don't understand why they were trying it. Their disastrous season so far is only increasing the premiums clubs will now add if/when they come knocking and has made them look foolish.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

The only signing United made in the summer was Fellaini. According to most United fans opinions I've read, he's been a bust and simply not Man Utd standard. So they've possibly blown 10m on that wrong signing when loss and wages are considered.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:45 pm  

Im sorry, but how can Levy be a genius for spending 100m on players that bar one, his manager didnt want? The ironic thing is all them signings have been pretty useless yet AVB gets sacked. :S

Regards

King James

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:05 am  

Vincent Kompany: Man City quadruple a matter of time. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25765975 Man City have spent a billion quid and taken 6 years to manage to pick up one league title and one FA Cup. A quadruple being inevitable? Moronic talk from a club who've actually given slim returns compared to their outlay. CFC have won the CL in recent time. We have a manager who's won it twice with other clubs. But there's nothing inevitable about us ever winning the CL ever again. Man City have actually managed to make it out of the group stages for the first time and they think that not only is it inevitable that they'll win it but they'll win everything else at the same time. I admire the ambition. I think that most top clubs should be making similar aims. But this is just talking big before you've even earned the right.

Vincent Kompany: Man City quadruple a matter of time. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25765975 Man City have spent a billion quid and taken 6 years to manage to pick up one league title and one FA Cup. A quadruple being inevitable? Moronic talk from a club who've actually given slim returns compared to their outlay. CFC have won the CL in recent time. We have a manager who's won it twice with other clubs. But there's nothing inevitable about us ever winning the CL ever again. Man City have actually managed to make it out of the group stages for the first time and they think that not only is it inevitable that they'll win it but they'll win everything else at the same time. I admire the ambition. I think that most top clubs should be making similar aims. But this is just talking big before you've even earned the right.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:21 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25765975

Man City have spent a billion quid and taken 6 years to manage to pick up one league title and one FA Cup. A quadruple being inevitable? Moronic talk from a club who've actually given slim returns compared to their outlay.

CFC have won the CL in recent time. We have a manager who's won it twice with other clubs. But there's nothing inevitable about us ever winning the CL ever again. Man City have actually managed to make it out of the group stages for the first time and they think that not only is it inevitable that they'll win it but they'll win everything else at the same time.

I admire the ambition. I think that most top clubs should be making similar aims. But this is just talking big before you've even earned the right.

Footballer makes daft comment. Shocking

In fact its a disappointingly unambitious comment when you consider that the stock answer to this sort of loaded question is "We try to win every game"

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:23 pm  

Proper teams will just motivate themselves without opening their big mouths.

Regards

King James

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:45 pm  

Nice moment from Mourinho today.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:31 am  

How will Mata fit in at United when Kagawa can't?

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:21 am  

Cibaman wrote:

How will Mata fit in at United when Kagawa can't?

Moyes hasn't played Kagawa. He will play Mata.

That's if Chelsea are retarded enough to actually do it.

The only worrying report for me is Martin Samuel's article saying that CFC would be wrong to sell to United. I agree with Samuel totally. But the way Samuel writes it's as if the deal is pretty much already completed.

Most of the rest of the speculation just seems to be BS to me. Ballbag is reporting that we want 32m or an exchange with Rooney. United say 32m is too much and no on Rooney. The Telegraph say around 40m with Mata asking for a move (which IMO will mean he misses out on "loyalty" payments worth millions).

How can one paper say that 32 is too much, while another is saying it's going to be 40 plau CFC not paying Mata's golden goodbye?

If Man United are offered Mata for 32m and they aren't snapping our hands off then they are just as retarded as we are.

My main hope is that we keep Mata. Having a fresh Mata to come in in the title run in will be an enormous boost. If he does go, I want him to go to PSG or Spain. If Mata went to United for 32m I'm off to London to give Roman and Jose a beating.