Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:00 am  

Cibaman wrote:

Does the manager operate the numbers board?

So it was the 4th officials fault. And Pellegrini just let it happen?

What was the excuse for not knowing how the away goals rule works?

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:53 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

So it was the 4th officials fault. And Pellegrini just let it happen?

What was the excuse for not knowing how the away goals rule works?

Wouldn't the manager just tell one of his assistants "I'm taking x off and putting on y"? Explain any other positional changes and then leave it to the assistant to tell the players and 4th official? It was a cock up but probably unfair to blame Pellegrini.

No arguments about the away goals fiasco.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:51 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

So it was the 4th officials fault. And Pellegrini just let it happen?

What was the excuse for not knowing how the away goals rule works?

bet david moyes wishes he had only got something like this to worry about

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:37 pm  

Without Rooney and RVP, manchester united squad is about as good as fulhams man for man, but sure, keep on blaming moyes

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:59 pm  

Lebron James wrote:

Without Rooney and RVP, manchester united squad is about as good as fulhams man for man, but sure, keep on blaming moyes

That Raymond Verheijen bloke on twitter says it's Moyes' fault RvP is injured. Blames Moyes' training methods/styles and the way he's used him. Find it hard that people aren't pointing a bit of the blame at Moyes, he looks lost and his team selections seem more of a hopeless punt rather than a clear aim or desirable way of playing.

I thought he done a decent job at Everton, but how long can United accept these results? People are saying United aren't like other clubs, that they know he's the right man and they always knew it would take time once Fergie left. Unfortunately, football isn't the sport where you get that time, the desire to win and win now is massive amongst every club. United have been fortunate that they've had Fergie for so long, as most of the other big sides in Europe have turned managers over quite regularly, purely because of that desire to win and win now, and purely because they find it almost impossible to sustain success and keep things 'fresh'. Moyes seemingly can't get this bunch to perform like AF did so he's going to have to sell a large portion of players and bring his own in. Personally, I don't think he's up to that task. He's still got half the year to pick things up and I do believe they will finish far better than they have been recently playing, Everton always seemed to pick up after January, but the majority of the season has been unacceptable given the lofty standards of recent decades.

[John_D]

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:44 am  

Roddy B wrote:

That Raymond Verheijen bloke on twitter says it's Moyes' fault RvP is injured.

He makes some fair points. Moyes said they'd overworked him in pre-season. Don't, ffs. You'll break him. He needs wrapping in cotton wool, not flogging into the ground.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:32 am  

Woodward also deserves to be included in any criticism IMO, he was part of the massive recruitment failure in the summer, which is what a significant amount of their current predicament boils down to. Whether it was him or Moyes that seemed to be wanting to get players on the cheap, one of them should have seen sense. They needed to get 1 or 2 good signings in fairly quickly to reassure other potential targets, the longer it went on the more hesitant people will have got about joining, as ever since it has just looked more and more like the start of the downward slope for Man Utd. Instead, they offered relative buttons for players, which will just have angered clubs who know full well that Man Utd can afford their asking prices. I reckon that had they offered a combined £40m for Fellaini and Baines in June/July, they'd have got them, and then they would have been in a better position to go after Fabregas for a similar figure.

Their midfield is so far from the standard they need it's frightening for them. Looking at the top 7/8 now, compare how many of their central midfielders would get a starting spot at any of the other sides to how many players at those teams would walk into Man Utd's current lineup. And there are 2 or 3 of those who arrived at their new clubs in the summer, so were on the market. To me, Tom Cleverley epitomises the decline of Man Utd's midfield, and so long as he is starting most games they will not regain their position as challengers.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:10 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

That Raymond Verheijen bloke on twitter says it's Moyes' fault RvP is injured. Blames Moyes' training methods/styles and the way he's used him. Find it hard that people aren't pointing a bit of the blame at Moyes, he looks lost and his team selections seem more of a hopeless punt rather than a clear aim or desirable way of playing.

In defence of Moyes, Verheijen was slagging him off as United boss as soon as his appointment was announced.

There's also the fact that RVP has always been a sicknote player, with the exception of last season.

Verheijen has a history of running his mouth. RVP and Arjen Robben were only injured at Arsenal and Chelsea because of the miss-training by their clubs, and seeing Robben at Bayern proved that he was okay at a club with proper training. 1) Isn't Robben back to being a sick note right now at Bayern again? 2) Robben was injured twice at Chelsea as a direct consequence of being kicked in matches.

He's said to have worked as advisor at a host of clubs including CFC, Arsenal and the pre money City, but IMO if the guy wanted unimpeachable credentials then he needs to get in at a major club and stay there. Make that side shine by having the fittest, strongest squad in Europe and then offer his proven theories. But he just seems to be a consultant with very few long term roles. If he was good as he thinks he is a top club would have kept him.

He's also the about effing DH who said he should have been appointed Wales boss after the death of Gary Speed. Giving him the job of manager was the only way to carry on Speed's legacy, according to him, in the days after Speed's death.

I thought he done a decent job at Everton, but how long can United accept these results? People are saying United aren't like other clubs, that they know he's the right man and they always knew it would take time once Fergie left. Unfortunately, football isn't the sport where you get that time, the desire to win and win now is massive amongst every club. United have been fortunate that they've had Fergie for so long, as most of the other big sides in Europe have turned managers over quite regularly, purely because of that desire to win and win now, and purely because they find it almost impossible to sustain success and keep things 'fresh'. Moyes seemingly can't get this bunch to perform like AF did so he's going to have to sell a large portion of players and bring his own in. Personally, I don't think he's up to that task. He's still got half the year to pick things up and I do believe they will finish far better than they have been recently playing, Everton always seemed to pick up after January, but the majority of the season has been unacceptable given the lofty standards of recent decades.

He did do a decent job at Everton. But doing a decent job at Everton and and being manager of Manchester United are such massively different roles that IMO MU were absolutely foolish for giving him the job. Being Scottish and being at Everton for a decade were the main reasons for his appointment IMO.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 1:25 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

Woodward also deserves to be included in any criticism IMO, he was part of the massive recruitment failure in the summer, which is what a significant amount of their current predicament boils down to. Whether it was him or Moyes that seemed to be wanting to get players on the cheap, one of them should have seen sense.

It is definitely a massive board screw up to have both the manager and the MD starting the jobs at the same time.

But blaming Woodward only makes sense if Moyes was giving him legitimate targets and he was missing them. It's not up to the MD to tell his manager that his squad is lacking if the manager thinks the squad is fine.

I reckon that had they offered a combined £40m for Fellaini and Baines in June/July, they'd have got them, and then they would have been in a better position to go after Fabregas for a similar figure.

I don't think Everton were ever up for selling two of their best players to their former manager. Everton were absolutely fine if neither player was sold. Don't forget that Fellaini had to go into Everton on deadline day and pretty much plead with them to go through with the transfer. I think Fellaini could have been losing millions in "loyalty" payments by pushing through his move like that. Everton weren't selling the pair unless Man United drowned them in money.

Just 80 million quid spent on a title winning side to maintain them?? I don't think Man Utd are a club who ever want to spend 80m on side that just won the title. I don't think the Glazers care about the football enough to do that, they own the club to make themselves more money. And I don't think the appointment of Moyes was done with the expectation that he'd be spending that amount of money.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Jan 09, 2014 4:31 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

It is definitely a massive board screw up to have both the manager and the MD starting the jobs at the same time.

But blaming Woodward only makes sense if Moyes was giving him legitimate targets and he was missing them. It's not up to the MD to tell his manager that his squad is lacking if the manager thinks the squad is fine.

Only if you're solely blaming Woodward. I'm simply saying that he should be included in any criticism of Moyes, as the root of the problems were not addressed in the summer, and from the outside it is impossible to know how much was down to which of the two so you can't really pick one out to criticise for it.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I don't think Everton were ever up for selling two of their best players to their former manager. Everton were absolutely fine if neither player was sold. Don't forget that Fellaini had to go into Everton on deadline day and pretty much plead with them to go through with the transfer. I think Fellaini could have been losing millions in "loyalty" payments by pushing through his move like that. Everton weren't selling the pair unless Man United drowned them in money.

But also don't forget that Fellaini had a release clause of about £22m at that stage, so they possibly would have had to. £17-18m for a 29-year-old Baines with Oviedo already there and a couple of months to spend the money could well have appealed a lot.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Just 80 million quid spent on a title winning side to maintain them?? I don't think Man Utd are a club who ever want to spend 80m on side that just won the title. I don't think the Glazers care about the football enough to do that, they own the club to make themselves more money. And I don't think the appointment of Moyes was done with the expectation that he'd be spending that amount of money.

Firstly, I'm not saying they should have signed Fellaini. They could have just signed Baines, but for a better price than they offered. I was only trying to make the point that if they were intent on both, they could/should have made sure of it much earlier and then moved on to other targets. The level of doubt about them in the summer was huge, so IMO they needed to get some business done quickly to show that they were still (at least intent on being) top dogs. When they didn't, they effectively just strengthened the impression in prospective signings' minds that their star was on the fall, and the longer it went on the harder they were making it for themselves.

Secondly, Manchester City showed how not spending comparatively much after a title win can blow up in your face. This time around they spent over £90m, Chelsea brought back Mourinho and spent £55-60m, Spurs £105m (albeit losing Bale), Liverpool about £50m and Arsenal bagged one of the players Man Utd should have been after for £42m. Having just lost the biggest asset at the club, the best player of his generation retiring, and arguably their best remaining player seeming to want out as well as age catching up with several others, if they genuinely didn't think they needed to spend big with the squad they had then they're morons.

Also, looking at things now, how much would missing the Champions League cost them? Along with the knock-on effect on recruitment/retention/transfer fees? Not spending enough last summer will cost them at least as much money IMO, whether it be directly in terms of prize money/CL revenue, or indirectly in having to offer bigger wages and clubs raising their prices as Man Utd get increasingly in need/desperate for quality players.