Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:58 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

I admit they're unlikely, but you never know. The way both Manchester sides have started their seasons could quite easily range anywhere from champions to 5th. So far, if anything long-term happens to either Kompany or Rooney they look like they'd struggle to manage that.

Citeh and United are full of title campaign players. Chelsea have a lot of title winners and have a lot of CL and cup winning players.

Arsenal and Spurs are still full of players who are going to wet their pants when the real business is being done. They are both going to celebrate finishing in the top 4 as a massive achievement.

I think that maybe one or two of CFC/MU/MC could have an off season and slip, but they're not all going to slip so far as to make a title for Spurs or Arsenal happen.

Also, Arsenal's form has been great, but they haven't played anyone expect Spurs (at home). I think they have an awful Oct/Nov period where they play a bunch of tough games. If they came through that on top form and winning most then they might be the real deal. But they've been out of the race for so long it's funny that Arsenal fans are getting so giddy now.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:26 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Title and CL in Portugal. Move on.
Title in England. Move on because the owner is a fool.
Title and CL in Italy. Move on.
Goes to a Megaclub in Spain. Wins title and makes progress, but he hates Spain and Spain hate him.

Say he wins another 2 titles at CFC and decides to then move on. Where in hell is he going to go? He really would cement himself as a short term manager and nothing more.

I think he's at CFC long term now (unless Roman goes mental AGAIN). Germany is the only other decent league, Pep's there so it's a non-starter. On top of his amazing success in his opening decade I now think he wants to show he can win titles and stay at a club for a prolonged period of time. IMO Man United would have been better and preferable for him than CFC, but circumstances didn't work out so he's looking long term for us instead.

Personally I think the only thing that gets Jose out of CFC is if in a couple of years, with 2 more titles and possibly a CL in his belt, Man United have sacked Moyes (who STILL hasn't won anything) and is willing to match his CFC salary and spend properly on players. Then I think he could still go to United. I think if Jose wins 10 titles in 15 years at CFC the "world" will still sneer at his achievement and say it was all because of Roman's money. I think if he wins 10 in 15 at United and gets one or 2 CL's then he goes down in the history books as the greatest manager in the history of football.

But I also think there would be a chance that if Man Utd call in 2 years time he'd laugh at them and tell them where to shove it.

There's a very simple way for Mourinho to shut up the critics saying it's because of Abramovich's money, and I personally think it's one of the things that went against him getting the Man Utd job: build a winning team without almost solely relying on spending a ton of money. He's still not really shown a talent for bringing academy players through a club and nurturing yet-to-be-fulfilled talent, his track record shows that he prefers/is much more successful with buying already-established players at premium prices. £70m in his first year at Chelsea (part one), €45m plus a player exchange in his first year at Inter, €72m in his first summer at Real, and another £63m at Chelsea (part two). But yeah, he's hard done to with people pointing at his spending.

For me, his most impressive achievement is still the Champions League with Porto, it's still the only place where I think he overachieved with the resources available and truly excelled.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:37 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I think that maybe one or two of CFC/MU/MC could have an off season and slip, but they're not all going to slip so far as to make a title for Spurs or Arsenal happen.

I never said actually win it, I said vie/compete for it. I meant can they actually be still in the reckoning amongst the big boys come April, rather than their seasons being all about competing for 4th by then again? The way the other 3 have started they don't show signs of being so many points better than Spurs and Arsenal this year IMO, but admittedly it's very early days.

I actually think that Spurs have arguably the most balanced squad outside of Man City, it's not as easy to point to where they are weak as it is with others. Just needs to be seen how well they continue to gel and how they handle pressure.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:56 pm  

LGJM.... I enjoy reading your posts on Mourinho/Chelsea/Man Utd and can see what you are getting at with regards to him now wanting a long term stay at Stamford Bridge, but the problem with that theory is one man - Roman Abramovich.

Its blindingly obvious that the man sees himself as Chelsea - His ego would actually love to be able to sack a manager and actually be on the bench himself, picking the side and making the decisions. Only the fact he realises he would look a cock probably stops him.... Yes, I'm probably being a bit silly, but the point I'm trying to make is that I just cannot visualise a situation where Roman allows a manager to settle into HIS club and basically take over, in the way that Ferguson did at United, or Shankly did at Anfield.

At the end of his ownership, Abramovich wants the fans to just remember one name, and that's his - His record with managers suggests that at the first show of serious crisis then Jose will go the same way as all the others and however good Mourinho is, it is unlikely that Chelsea (or anybody else) will dominate in the way United did under Ferguson (though it could be argued that for some small periods during the early 21st century, Ferguson, under a Roman-type chairman, would have been fired).

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:10 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

There's a very simple way for Mourinho to shut up the critics saying it's because of Abramovich's money, and I personally think it's one of the things that went against him getting the Man Utd job: build a winning team without almost solely relying on spending a ton of money. He's still not really shown a talent for bringing academy players through a club and nurturing yet-to-be-fulfilled talent, his track record shows that he prefers/is much more successful with buying already-established players at premium prices. £70m in his first year at Chelsea (part one), €45m plus a player exchange in his first year at Inter, €72m in his first summer at Real, and another £63m at Chelsea (part two). But yeah, he's hard done to with people pointing at his spending.

For me, his most impressive achievement is still the Champions League with Porto, it's still the only place where I think he overachieved with the resources available and truly excelled.

I agree that his greatest achievement was the CL win with Porto. But the CL win with Inter Milan isn't far behind. 3 titles and a CL in Italy is clearly excelling.

Even if Jose brings through a bunch of young players I don't think that would change the way he's perceived anyway. At Chelsea his achievements will be dismissed. At United the same achievement would be lauded.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:46 pm  

People seem to be expecting late drama from United but can Moyes truly go for it like Fergie did? Not been impressed by United once this season, but I remember almost every season at Everton was the same, they started crud then got themselves together and performed. That's not good enough for United, and he'll know that, but I'm wondering how tempted he is to just stick Fellaini up top and play for set pieces like he did at Everton.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:54 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

LGJM.... I enjoy reading your posts on Mourinho/Chelsea/Man Utd and can see what you are getting at with regards to him now wanting a long term stay at Stamford Bridge, but the problem with that theory is one man - Roman Abramovich.

Its blindingly obvious that the man sees himself as Chelsea - His ego would actually love to be able to sack a manager and actually be on the bench himself, picking the side and making the decisions. Only the fact he realises he would look a cock probably stops him.... Yes, I'm probably being a bit silly, but the point I'm trying to make is that I just cannot visualise a situation where Roman allows a manager to settle into HIS club and basically take over, in the way that Ferguson did at United, or Shankly did at Anfield.

At the end of his ownership, Abramovich wants the fans to just remember one name, and that's his - His record with managers suggests that at the first show of serious crisis then Jose will go the same way as all the others and however good Mourinho is, it is unlikely that Chelsea (or anybody else) will dominate in the way United did under Ferguson (though it could be argued that for some small periods during the early 21st century, Ferguson, under a Roman-type chairman, would have been fired).

I don't have the best of memories, but I'm sure there was more than a few people on here who were sure that Mourinho wouldn't be coming back because Roman wouldn't accept he was wrong by sacking him in the first place.

I don't see Roman as being so led by his ego. For a start he's taken a massive kicking with most of his sackings, even when history showed that his sackings were actually inspired - in the case of RDM for AVB and Hiddink for Scolari for example.

I think that Roman knows that the massive turnover of managers has been damaging to the club in many respects. I think that Roman knows that if Jose does go, there's not really that many managers that we haven't tried before.

I love Jose Mourinho and think that he has every chance of going down in history as an equal, if not a better, than Alex Ferguson. But my opinion of Roman Abramovich is pretty much equal to that of Jose. Without Roman there is no Jose Mourinho at CFC, there is no league titles, there is no CL win, there is no Didier Drogba at CFC.

All Roman needs to do from now is sit and watch and enjoy seeing how 10 years of watching CFC under 9 different managers compares with watching CFC with 1 manager in that time. He doesn't have his ego stroked by making the dumbest decision in football history TWICE.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:59 pm  

Jose will stay at Chelsea 'til after Euro 2016, when either England or Portugal will be so desperately in crisis they'll give him stupid money. He'd like England for the challenge and attention, and Portugal obviously because they're huge underachievers and they're his home country.

I don't for one minute believe Mourinho will be a coach in football ten years from now, he'll retire early IMO. His coaching style depends on huge emotional loyalty, the scenes when he left Inter shown what he gains from players, but it also takes a lot from him and his seesaw relationship with the media will eventually take its toll, IMO of course.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:17 am  

Roddy B wrote:

Jose will stay at Chelsea 'til after Euro 2016, when either England or Portugal will be so desperately in crisis they'll give him stupid money. He'd like England for the challenge and attention, and Portugal obviously because they're huge underachievers and they're his home country.

He's already getting stupid money! The only way either our FA or the P FA are going to pay even more stupid money is on bonuses if he wins the World Cup for them. Looking at the English players, Jose will say no thanks. Managing Portugal at a World Cup would be awesome for him, but he'd know that anything can happen in the latter stages of the World Cup so he wouldn't risk everything on that.

I don't for one minute believe Mourinho will be a coach in football ten years from now, he'll retire early IMO. His coaching style depends on huge emotional loyalty, the scenes when he left Inter shown what he gains from players, but it also takes a lot from him and his seesaw relationship with the media will eventually take its toll, IMO of course.

I think he's already lost most of the interest in fighting with the media. I think there's a massive difference between how he is now with the media and what he was like before.

Maybe it is wishful thinking from me to think Jose is back long term. Maybe he is going to do what he did at Porto and Inter and walk away after delivering the CL? While I don't want him to do that, I'd accept that right now.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:50 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

He's already getting stupid money! The only way either our FA or the P FA are going to pay even more stupid money is on bonuses if he wins the World Cup for them. Looking at the English players, Jose will say no thanks. Managing Portugal at a World Cup would be awesome for him, but he'd know that anything can happen in the latter stages of the World Cup so he wouldn't risk everything on that.

I think he's already lost most of the interest in fighting with the media. I think there's a massive difference between how he is now with the media and what he was like before.

Maybe it is wishful thinking from me to think Jose is back long term. Maybe he is going to do what he did at Porto and Inter and walk away after delivering the CL? While I don't want him to do that, I'd accept that right now.

I think the challenge of managing either nation would appeal, the pay would simply be to add to the ego which we all know does matter.

Regarding Chelsea, he's only just into his stay so it's really hard to see how he'll go. He's grown up since he first came, I think the experience at Madrid was a huge one. He was given everything there but player power overwhelmed even him, maybe that experience has taught him to settle down so he's returned to the club that brought him the most happiness. I definitely believe international football is his next step, I just wonder how he (and Roman) will cope with not winning everything. City are now a huge fish, United should compete and Arsenal/Spurs look more of a threat than we ever were when he managed here, I just can't see sustained success being a regular thing for any side now that Fergie's gone.