Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:39 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Maradona 34 goals in 91 internationals.
Messi 35 in 82.
Suarez 35 in 69.

Not sure what that means entirely, but it's an impressive haul from Suarez.

Maradona was much more mental off the pitch, and slightly less mental on it.

Looking at the records of the three players I'm happy saying Suarez is 2/3 the ability of Messi, but it's harder to compare Suarez and Maradona.

Maradona shone at international level by winning the WC, losing in the final of another. He also disgraced himself in his first and last World Cups. His club career though was underwhelming.

Messi's club career pees, poops and vomits all over the club careers of Maradona and Suarez combined.

Suarez needs to reject Arsenal and move to a mega club where he can shine.

Maradona & Messi didn't/haven't always played predominantly as a striker, though, Suarez has AFAIK. The strike rates just reflect that. It's like Trezeguet had a better strike rate for France than Zidane, a similar haul of winners' medals, but not many would say he was in the same class for ability.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:38 pm  

I wouldn't say he plays exclusively as a striker. Uruguay have long played Suarez, Forlan and Cavani together, or two of those regularly together. He's pretty much played similarly to what he is at Liverpool but not alone for Uruguay.

Suarez doesn't have many physical gifts, he's nippy but not prolifically quick, stocky but not a powerhouse and he's pretty short. His sheer will and ability to be better than everybody else is what makes him the player he is. Messi and Maradona are/were God-sent talents, it's not really a fair comparison.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:03 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

Maradona & Messi didn't/haven't always played predominantly as a striker, though, Suarez has AFAIK. The strike rates just reflect that. It's like Trezeguet had a better strike rate for France than Zidane, a similar haul of winners' medals, but not many would say he was in the same class for ability.

It was just something that stood out when looking at their records. It wasn't something that I'd ever considered. My first impression on the comment that Suarez had 2/3 of the ability of Maradona was to think whether that was even a dig or a compliment.

Ronaldo and Messi are two "not traditional strikers" who just happen to score at twice the scoring rate as 100% strikers. They are absolute monsters for Barca and Real, but neither of them do anywhere near as well in internationals, and Suarez's record is superior there. It was just something that shocked me.

For me Maradona stands at pretty much the front of the "Gods of Football". But that's mainly because he dragged Argentina to a WC win. His club career was poor in comparison. I honestly don't know what the hell is going on with the scoring of Messi and Ronaldo. They are the Super Gods of football right now and TBH I think the world doesn't comprehend just how awesome these guys are.

It was like when the story about Chelsea swapping Mata for Rooney plus 10m came out. I just laughed at the thought of it (and Chelsea have thankfully come out and said "no way for Mata"). But it did get me thinking about how much Rooney was worth and how much Mata was worth. And in the end the honest truth is that I cannot put a proper figure on either player. I just know I don't want Mata to leave. Rooney could be a RVP signing for Chelsea, or he could be a flop who actually is past his best.

I think Suarez has a higher rating in terms of football right now but I keep pointing out that 2011/12 Rooney was actually better than 2012/13 Suarez for scoring.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:20 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

I wouldn't say he plays exclusively as a striker.

Me neither. Hence why I didn't.

What I did say is that he is predominantly a striker, whereas the other 2 aren't/weren't and have played a lot of games from midfield.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:46 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

It was just something that stood out when looking at their records. It wasn't something that I'd ever considered. My first impression on the comment that Suarez had 2/3 of the ability of Maradona was to think whether that was even a dig or a compliment.

Ronaldo and Messi are two "not traditional strikers" who just happen to score at twice the scoring rate as 100% strikers. They are absolute monsters for Barca and Real, but neither of them do anywhere near as well in internationals, and Suarez's record is superior there. It was just something that shocked me.

For me Maradona stands at pretty much the front of the "Gods of Football". But that's mainly because he dragged Argentina to a WC win. His club career was poor in comparison. I honestly don't know what the hell is going on with the scoring of Messi and Ronaldo. They are the Super Gods of football right now and TBH I think the world doesn't comprehend just how awesome these guys are.

I completely agree that it's an impressive scoring record. Even measured against other strikers it holds up. I was just pointing out that using it to compare against Maradona and Messi is at least partly flawed given that they also play/played regularly in deeper roles as providers more than finishers.

On Ronaldo/Messi, I'll say that I completely acknowledge how good they are. Hard to argue that they are not currently the best 2 players in the world. BUT: Part of why their goal scoring ratios are so high is simply because they are the focal points of 2 of the most domestically dominant teams in recent history. As good as La Liga is, to find a league where the same 2 sides are so far ahead of almost all the rest you have to go back to Scottish football a few years ago, and Celtic & Rangers strikers have always had decent returns as a result, too (Gary Hooper the latest with 63 in 95, but if it wasn't for Norwich would be back in the Championship next season). Barcelona & Real scored almost as many goals as the top 3 here last season, and there was 34 points between 1st and 4th. That would cover the top 7 here. As I say, definitely brilliant players, but their scoring records reflect the brilliance of their teams as much as them IMO.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:11 am  

I know what you're saying and I've definitely thought about that.

I'd counter that by saying that other pretty excellent players have been at Barca and Real in very strong periods and even they haven't got close to performing as high and consistently as those two. The "real" Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Ibrahimovic. Even stop strikers like Linekar further back. Maradona only stayed two seasons at Barca.

Other top players have pretty much burned out quickly at those clubs and left. Ronaldo and Messi have accepted total responsibility for carrying those teams and done it for a long time with massive consistency.

I think when Arjen Robben started at Chelsea he was better than Ronaldo was. But Ronaldo grew and grew as a player while Robben stayed at a similar level. Robben played at Madrid before Ronaldo went there. Robben didn't benefit at all from being in a title winning side. I know Robben is fragile while Messi and Ronaldo are virtually bullet proof, but I think Robben should have been a lot closer to them two than he is.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:07 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I know what you're saying and I've definitely thought about that.

I'd counter that by saying that other pretty excellent players have been at Barca and Real in very strong periods and even they haven't got close to performing as high and consistently as those two. The "real" Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Ibrahimovic. Even stop strikers like Linekar further back. Maradona only stayed two seasons at Barca.

Other top players have pretty much burned out quickly at those clubs and left. Ronaldo and Messi have accepted total responsibility for carrying those teams and done it for a long time with massive consistency.

I think when Arjen Robben started at Chelsea he was better than Ronaldo was. But Ronaldo grew and grew as a player while Robben stayed at a similar level. Robben played at Madrid before Ronaldo went there. Robben didn't benefit at all from being in a title winning side. I know Robben is fragile while Messi and Ronaldo are virtually bullet proof, but I think Robben should have been a lot closer to them two than he is.

I agree, that's why I say it's part of the reason but not all of it. The dominance of their teams offers them the opportunities, their quality is what takes most of them. If they weren't as good their strike rates would be more like others, but likewise if they were at Atletico, Sociedad or Valencia you could probably say the same. It's the combination that makes their stats so impressive.

With Robben, again he's more of a wider player so will never score the goals they do. I actually think Ribery is more his style/level. The other thing about Robben is just how monumentally selfish he is, which damages his game IMO. He'd sooner have a pop from 40 yards than play a teammate in behind the opposition. It means he scores some great goals, but it probably costs him a fair few as well by breaking down a play he might have ended up finishing off.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:34 am  

Apparantly Pepe Reina isn't happy that LFC agreed to loan him to Napoli without consulting with him first. Don't know how true it is, but if it is, then it doesn't surprise me one bit, especially considering the arguments of "loyalty" with regards to Suarez.

We will be screwed if Mingolet picks up an injury.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:09 pm  

On Reina, I'm not fully understanding why it's such a bad thing that Liverpool agreed to loan him to Napoli before speaking to him. Isn't that how transfers of any kind are supposed to work? First the clubs must come to an agreement, then the player decides whether or not he wants to go. They haven't forced him to go as far as I can see, and he has agreed to the move in the event anyway.

I suspect that what he's really upset about is not leaving Liverpool, it's that he's not gone to Barcelona. He's being unreasonable if he expected Liverpool to not sort themselves a new long-term keeper whilst he waits for Valdes to play out his contract.

It also shows just how dead loyalty is in football when a player openly telling a club and it's fans that they are his second choice is being held up as a shining example of it.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:52 pm  

On top of that, can you imagine the people holding the purse strings would be happy with a keeper picking up 100K a week while sat on the bench.

Best result all round, fingers crossed for Reina that Barca come in for him next year when Valdes leaves.