Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:41 pm  

It won't be long before the trickle of player disgruntlement turns into a torrent against Capello. These pampered pop celebrities can't POSSIBLY be the reason England flunked the World Cup. "He wouldn't play me in my rightful position", "He ran the training camp like an SS Kommandant", "We missed our wives ..." - Waaaaaah! Waaaaaah!

And the English (and hopelessly southern-biased) media is practically itching to stick the knife in. Although I give Gabriele Marcotti (who is one of the few hacks that know Capello's methods) some credit for correcting this weird idea that has permeated through print and broadcast media that Capello is a rigid 4-4-2 manager. Whilst he does favour the system he has - on numerous occasions - changed to 3-5-2, 4,5,1 & 4,2,3,1.

I suspect Capello will leave (with a juicy cheque in his breast pocket), but anyone who thinks Harry Redknapp will lead England to the land of milk and honey is pitifully deluded. Terry, Lampard, Gerrard, Heskey - these guys are damaged goods (just as Farrell, Sculthorpe, Long, Fielden etc. were in the face of Australia). They don't know HOW to win in the big games.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:06 pm  

The only glimmer of hope for English football is the U17s, which have been described as the best passing side for thirty years. I've read excellent reports about the young Arsenal striker Benik Afobe (who Barcelona tried to snatch) as well as Roy Keane's Connor Wickham. Turning Spain over in a major final (not to mention coming from behind) is some feat. Let's hope the next batch of England players (Agbonlahor, Gibbs, Huddlestone etc.) don't undeservedly hog the limelight like Terry, Gerrard, Cole, Lampard etc. and prevent these kids from exercising their talents at an early age (like the German contingent).

I suspect we will get the 2018 World Cup. We have to hope something better is around the corner or we could face the ignominious (and nightmare) scenario of failing to qualify from our group like South Africa.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:12 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Terry, Lampard, Gerrard - these guys are damaged goods. They don't know HOW to win in the big games.

No. They do know how to win in the big games, but they don't know how to do it when they're not the 'main men' and they don't know how to do it without their foreign team mates. Ask Chelsea fans, Lampard and Terry have won them many a game, Gerrard with us, too. There's no doubting they could do it for England, but it would have to be at the sacrifice of others. IMO, only one of Gerrard or Lampard has to play, whilst I'm still not keen on Rooney as a striker on his own at international level, but he's probably the only striker England have who's actually good, so he has to play.

England have to find a player, a system, a style and build around it. We've consistently just tried to throw players together when it clearly doesn't work, players who have their respective club sides built around them. Not only this, but we consistently try to play players out of position, we give them different roles and ask them to do things that they don't generally do for their club sides. How many times has Gerrard played on the left for Liverpool? How often did Milner play on the right this year? How many times has Lampard been a centre mid in a 4-4-2? How many times did Defoe play up front with another small striker this year? How many times has Terry played without a proper defensive midfielder in front of him?

The players have been put in completely different situations to what they find themselves in for their club sides. It's a weakness of our players that they lack versatility in their style of play and ability to adapt, so why would you play so many out of position and give them differing roles to what they get every week for their clubs?


As for England's U-17's. We at Liverpool seem to have a few who are getting good reviews. Andre Wisdom is a monster at centre back (former Bradford youth), Raheem Sterling recently joined and he's looked class, Jack Robinson already looks a player at 16 and there are a few others whose name escape me. But still, I haven't seen a passing midfielder who looks to control play.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:15 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Terry, Lampard, Gerrard, Heskey - these guys are damaged goods (just as Farrell, Sculthorpe, Long, Fielden etc. were in the face of Australia). They don't know HOW to win in the big games.

Yeah, because being up against the Barca's and AC Milan's are just a kickabout in the park, aren't they you dumb ****.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:24 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Yeah, because being up against the Barca's and AC Milan's are just a kickabout in the park, aren't they you dumb ****.

World Cups: Zero.
European Championships: Zero.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:30 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

It won't be long before the trickle of player disgruntlement turns into a torrent against Capello. These pampered pop celebrities can't POSSIBLY be the reason England flunked the World Cup. "He wouldn't play me in my rightful position", "He ran the training camp like an SS Kommandant", "We missed our wives ..." - Waaaaaah! Waaaaaah!

Is there anyone saying that the players don't deserve criticism?

The players have been slagged off for how they played and they will continue to be slagged off.

But Capello is the one earning the millions of pounds a year to manage the player. The players don't earn massive amounts playing for England, but Capello earns a fortune for managing them. And he deserves criticism when they perform as terribly as they did. A lot of the criticism will be wrong, but there will be a lot of it that is spot on as well.

And the English (and hopelessly southern-biased) media is practically itching to stick the knife in.

WTF are you on to keep banging on about a southern based media FFS??? How does any southern bias affect the coverage of the England team? The southern-biased media were the ones that screwed over John Terry. The southern-biased media are the ones who cheerlead for Rooney to be PotY when he's been outperformed by a southerner based player. The southern-biased media were the ones who managed to get Venables and Hoddle sacked as England managers for non-footballing reason.

Why shouldn't the media stick the knife into Capello for that shoddy display?

... but anyone who thinks Harry Redknapp will lead England to the land of milk and honey is pitifully deluded..

As they say, a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:40 pm  

Robbie Rotten wrote:

No. They do know how to win in the big games, but they don't know how to do it when they're not the 'main men' and they don't know how to do it without their foreign team mates. Ask Chelsea fans, Lampard and Terry have won them many a game, Gerrard with us, too. There's no doubting they could do it for England, but it would have to be at the sacrifice of others. IMO, only one of Gerrard or Lampard has to play, whilst I'm still not keen on Rooney as a striker on his own at international level, but he's probably the only striker England have who's actually good, so he has to play.

England have to find a player, a system, a style and build around it. We've consistently just tried to throw players together when it clearly doesn't work, players who have their respective club sides built around them. Not only this, but we consistently try to play players out of position, we give them different roles and ask them to do things that they don't generally do for their club sides. How many times has Gerrard played on the left for Liverpool? How often did Milner play on the right this year? How many times has Lampard been a centre mid in a 4-4-2? How many times did Defoe play up front with another small striker this year? How many times has Terry played without a proper defensive midfielder in front of him?

England should have built a team around Gerrard and Rooney when the latter first emerged as a potent weapon. Lampard was almost certainly a square peg looking at a round hole. But this is all pie-in-the-sky stuff. There's too much politics surrounding the national team. Too many players with super-sized egos using bought-hacks to manoeuvre their profiles up the celebrity ziggurat. Capello had it nailed on when cut the testicles off the England captaincy role. For too long that "honour" was abused and by relegating its importance to near insignificance he regained some measure of power from the players. But even Capello can't bring down The System. For too long the national team has been run by a small cadre of Elite players (who are no longer Elite) and they guard their treasure jealously.

As for England's U-17's. We at Liverpool seem to have a few who are getting good reviews. Andre Wisdom is a monster at centre back (former Bradford youth), Raheem Sterling recently joined and he's looked class, Jack Robinson already looks a player at 16 and there are a few others whose name escape me. But still, I haven't seen a passing midfielder who looks to control play.

And yet the head of Liverpool's academy recently came out in public saying there is little chance it will produce anything substantial for TWO YEARS.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:41 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

World Cups: Zero.
European Championships: Zero.

George Best didn't know how to win big games then? Eusabio? Ryan Giggs is obviously clueless in how to win big games.

England have some very good players who know how to win big games. But these players are overwhelmed by players who barely deserve a squad place for England in the World Cup. All our goalkeepers are awful, all our strikers are substandard (apart from Rooney, who was either unfit or suffering from something). No matter how good a few players are, it's ridiculous to place the blame on the best players for not being able to carry poor players to a WC or EC win.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:01 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Is there anyone saying that the players don't deserve criticism?

The players have been slagged off for how they played and they will continue to be slagged off.

But Capello is the one earning the millions of pounds a year to manage the player. The players don't earn massive amounts playing for England, but Capello earns a fortune for managing them. And he deserves criticism when they perform as terribly as they did. A lot of the criticism will be wrong, but there will be a lot of it that is spot on as well.

Let's consider the facts. England are 8th in the FIFA rankings. Not fantastic, but not bad either. There's an argument that says we should make the quarter finals. But Germany are ranked 6th (above Argentina) and so we shouldn't be too dismayed at going out to them. Capello got us to the World Cup without any real difficulties - and we put in some creditable performances along the way. I've no idea what Capello's wages have to do with anything. International managers don't come cheap. International managers who have won NINE titles in two of the three strongest leagues in the world (along with a CL title) are hardly likely to work gratis.

We have no idea what went on behind the scenes. We have no idea what instructions Capello gave the players. England didn't lose to Germany because of a 4-4-2 formation. They lost because several - high profile - players (Terry, Lampard, Barry, Gerrard & Rooney - along with Johnson, Cole (x2) etc.) lost their heads completely and failed to perform the most basic tasks (and we were robbed a goal which could easily have changed everything). I'm confident Capello didn't instruct our back four to move about with all the cohesion of a bee swarm.

And let's be honest here. From the very beginning - ALL OF US - knew England's chances rested on Rooney's shoulders. Sure, players like Gerrard, Lampard & Terry are important - but without Rooney we had no focal point in attack (someone who could bring the midfielders into the game) and no goal threat. And Rooney stank. For what reason I'm not sure. I suspect he was either injured or burned out. But it makes no difference. Rooney was our World Cup and our fortunes echoed his entirely.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:09 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

George Best didn't know how to win big games then? Eusabio? Ryan Giggs is obviously clueless in how to win big games.

Maradona isn't regarded as one of (if not THE) greatest player(s) on earth because of his feats in Serie A. Maradona's greatness was forged in the World Cup. It's the highest standard of competition. Period.