Re: Boxing Round 2 : Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:31 pm  

Mass Effect wrote:

I cannot believe my ears. Did I really just hear Ordinary Harrison call out David Haye and then the Klitchko brothers?? Is he mental??

He's not even going to beat Michael Sprott, god knows why he's getting ahead of himself and wanting to challenge for the heavyweight crown.

Yes you heard right its just been on SSN

Now thats a "fight" I would pay to see Harrison getting battered

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:48 pm  

brearley84 wrote:

yes they can get back up but keep going down and lose just like ruiz did.

Huh?

the boxers you mentioned got put down by quality fighters, has haye fought a real quality fighter yet??

Given his lack of boxing experience, sure. You're forgetting that this was only his 25th fight. It wasn't too long ago when a boxer with 25 bouts under his belt would only just be THINKING about a British title fight. So far Haye has unified the CW division to become undisputed (and Ring magazine) champion and then gone up to HW where after only THREE fights (perhaps 4 if you include Bonin) he's knocked down genuine heavies TEN TIMES and won the WBA world title against a guy 60 POUNDS heavier than him, who has never been on the canvas and whose only other loss was in a title fight against a multiple gold-medal-winning amateur (Chagaev). I mean, what more do you phucking want?

ruiz over the hill, valuev ? we will see if he can take a real heavyweight punch from the ukranian brothers, i hope he can but still say he has a glass jaw... he got put down by monte barrett, mormeck, thompson (who was about 50!)... these werent heavyweights! and he also got knocked out in the amateurs (check youtube lol) thats enough evidence for me to show he can be beaten with a real punch.

FFS! Ruiz might be in decline, but the gradient of the slope isn't steep by any stretch. Again, a recap - Haye battered a highly respected two-time HW belt holder whose only KO defeat was against the very hard hitting David Tua. This is a guy who Evander Holyfield (three times), Chagaev, Valuev, Rahman, Kirk Johnson & Tony "TNT" Tucker couldn't put away.

The Monte Barrett knockdown isn't worth poop. I'm not certain it was a knockdown. And even if it was, Haye didn't seem to be hurt in any way. Mormeck is a highly respected and former undisputed CW champion. If now we're saying anyone who gets dropped by an undisputed champ in a title fight (and with only 20 bouts under his belt) has a glass jaw then the world has gone mad. As stated, Haye lost against Tommo (a three-time World champ) because he gassed. Just about everyone on the planet recognises this. Why can't you? And so what if he's been put down at a lower weight. Manny Pacquiao was starched by Rustico Torrecampo, a guy whose record stands at 14 wins, 8 defeats and 5 draws (hardly a "quality opponent"). By your logic Manny's beard is weak. He'll never make it at the higher weights. Oh, wait a minute ...

As for Haye's amateur record. It's interesting that you choose to concentrate only on the negatives and not the fact that his achievements in the amateurs were outstanding. That tells me a lot about not just you, but your appreciation and understanding of the sport in general. According to people like you Haye can NEVER take a REAL punch, because real punches are only those that KO him. It's fundamentally flawed reasoning which can be summed up neatly by one word: P-R-E-J-U-D-I-C-E. And what the phuck's there to "lol" about watching a guy get KOd in the amateurs?

dont get me started on khan!! this guy is manufactured !

now they go put him in with mallignaggi who is a total non puncher AGAIN.. khan has dodged maidana why?? because hes a puncher

mitchell did the job on prescott

khan will get credit from me when he fights prescott, mitchell,maidana or a puncher instead or hand picking fights... he also dodged devon alexander

at least mitchell doesnt dodge fighters, look who hes got next ...katsidis

You mean Kevin Mitchell - a fighter TWO YEARS older than Khan? Remind me, what did Kevin Mitchell achieve at the Olympics? What do you mean by "manufactured"? Has Khan been put together in some kind of robotised car factory or something? The kid is 23 years old and is already in possession of a world title belt after beating the respectable Andriy Kotelnik (who BEAT Maidana). I mean, you people won't be happy until Khan is thrown in against Floyd Mayweather or Shane Mosley and gets tonked so you can trumpet to the world how clever you are. Well d'uh! What do you expect? Right now Khan is ON SCHEDULE (perhaps even ahead), not behind. In Malignaggi he's fighting precisely the right opponent at the right time. Do you honestly think a trainer as respected as Freddie Roach is going to throw Khan in against someone like Mosley just four fights after he took a bad beating which almost wrecked his career? "Dodge" my phucking booty. If Khan beats Malignaggi (who is A LOT better fighter than people give credit, especially when his hands are okay) and goes in against Marquez after you'll be slating him for taking on a "has been" or a "blown up light welter".

I'll say it again - Khan is TWENTY THREE. Many, many good fighters don't achieve anything like what Khan has before they turn THIRTY. Look at Carl Froch - or even Calzaghe, whose career didn't really take off until after the Lacy fight.

P.S. Maidana isn't anything to be terrified of, anyhow. Under Roach, Khan would keep him at distance and carve him into slices with speed and accuracy.

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:34 pm  

Anyone who doesn't rate David Haye or Amir Khan, knows f*ck all about boxing.

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:06 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

Huh?

Given his lack of boxing experience, sure. You're forgetting that this was only his 25th fight. It wasn't too long ago when a boxer with 25 bouts under his belt would only just be THINKING about a British title fight. So far Haye has unified the CW division to become undisputed (and Ring magazine) champion and then gone up to HW where after only THREE fights (perhaps 4 if you include Bonin) he's knocked down genuine heavies TEN TIMES and won the WBA world title against a guy 60 POUNDS heavier than him, who has never been on the canvas and whose only other loss was in a title fight against a multiple gold-medal-winning amateur (Chagaev). I mean, what more do you phucking want?

FFS! Ruiz might be in decline, but the gradient of the slope isn't steep by any stretch. Again, a recap - Haye battered a highly respected two-time HW belt holder whose only KO defeat was against the very hard hitting David Tua. This is a guy who Evander Holyfield (three times), Chagaev, Valuev, Rahman, Kirk Johnson & Tony "TNT" Tucker couldn't put away.

The Monte Barrett knockdown isn't worth poop. I'm not certain it was a knockdown. And even if it was, Haye didn't seem to be hurt in any way. Mormeck is a highly respected and former undisputed CW champion. If now we're saying anyone who gets dropped by an undisputed champ in a title fight (and with only 20 bouts under his belt) has a glass jaw then the world has gone mad. As stated, Haye lost against Tommo (a three-time World champ) because he gassed. Just about everyone on the planet recognises this. Why can't you? And so what if he's been put down at a lower weight. Manny Pacquiao was starched by Rustico Torrecampo, a guy whose record stands at 14 wins, 8 defeats and 5 draws (hardly a "quality opponent"). By your logic Manny's beard is weak. He'll never make it at the higher weights. Oh, wait a minute ...

As for Haye's amateur record. It's interesting that you choose to concentrate only on the negatives and not the fact that his achievements in the amateurs were outstanding. That tells me a lot about not just you, but your appreciation and understanding of the sport in general. According to people like you Haye can NEVER take a REAL punch, because real punches are only those that KO him. It's fundamentally flawed reasoning which can be summed up neatly by one word: P-R-E-J-U-D-I-C-E. And what the phuck's there to "lol" about watching a guy get KOd in the amateurs?

You mean Kevin Mitchell - a fighter TWO YEARS older than Khan? Remind me, what did Kevin Mitchell achieve at the Olympics? What do you mean by "manufactured"? Has Khan been put together in some kind of robotised car factory or something? The kid is 23 years old and is already in possession of a world title belt after beating the respectable Andriy Kotelnik (who BEAT Maidana). I mean, you people won't be happy until Khan is thrown in against Floyd Mayweather or Shane Mosley and gets tonked so you can trumpet to the world how clever you are. Well d'uh! What do you expect? Right now Khan is ON SCHEDULE (perhaps even ahead), not behind. In Malignaggi he's fighting precisely the right opponent at the right time. Do you honestly think a trainer as respected as Freddie Roach is going to throw Khan in against someone like Mosley just four fights after he took a bad beating which almost wrecked his career? "Dodge" my phucking booty. If Khan beats Malignaggi (who is A LOT better fighter than people give credit, especially when his hands are okay) and goes in against Marquez after you'll be slating him for taking on a "has been" or a "blown up light welter".

I'll say it again - Khan is TWENTY THREE. Many, many good fighters don't achieve anything like what Khan has before they turn THIRTY. Look at Carl Froch - or even Calzaghe, whose career didn't really take off until after the Lacy fight.

P.S. Maidana isn't anything to be terrified of, anyhow. Under Roach, Khan would keep him at distance and carve him into slices with speed and accuracy.

huh?? cant you read? you said boxers can get knocked down but still get back up and win, ofcourse.. but they can also lose just like ruiz did getting knocked down again and again.

we all know the heavyweight division is a laughing stock at the moment and this is why david haye should be able to unify the division, but whether he does is another thing, i think we will have to agree to disagree that he has a glass jaw... ive seen enough to see he has.

haye 'gassed' against a fighter 16 years his senior

oh so i know nothing about boxing now just because i say my opinion? PREDJUDICE ?

by saying manufactured i mean by the way he has been promoted by frank warren, hand picked fights, dodging fighters who have any decent knock out rate, fighters who are the same size as him etc..
im not the only one who thinks this, alot of people in boxing feel the same way and know he will get found out again.
like i say he wont get my respect until he avenges his defeat to prescott or fights somebody as big and with a punch.
i was at the kotelnik fight, it was closer than what the judges gave.

please dont mention mayweather and mosley in the same sentence as khan roach and team khan would run a mile! i think khan will beat mallignaggi as i dont rate mallignaggi, also marquez is past it now just like barrera was...they will pick him though no doubt.

by the way im a david haye fan.. like i say could get caught out by his glass jaw
not a khan fan... YET !

good to have abit of banter anyhow

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:25 pm  

brearley84 wrote:

huh?? cant you read? you said boxers can get knocked down but still get back up and win, ofcourse.. but they can also lose just like ruiz did getting knocked down again and again.

Of course they can lose. Anyone can lose. The point is you don't judge a chin on the number of knockdowns a fighter takes. Anyone can be knocked down. Especially at Heavy, where even the least heavy hitters are dropping bombs that would leave Joe Public on life support. All it takes is for you to lose your concentration for one split second, or get caught off balance - or coming in to finish an opponent and it's lights out. Plenty of great warriors have been dropped at the hands of lesser fighters; even mediocre fighters. Plenty of great boxers have been KOd similarly. Calzaghe & Eubank had two of the toughest chins in modern history. But they could be dropped. What made them special was their recuperative powers. Calzaghe was freakish in his ability to recover from queer street to perfect health before the referee got to the count of five (check out the Byron Mitchell fight in which he was flattened by a cement truck, appeared like he was on Venus for three second, got up and then KOd his opponent in the same round!). You could argue the best chins are attached to fighters who DO get dropped and then beat the count because at least you KNOW they were hurt. In some cases it's harder to tell who has the better chins amongst fighters who never go down as it could be they just weren't hit flush. Consider a fighter like Bernard Hopkins. Does he have a truly GREAT chin, or is it that his defence is so good he avoids being hit square? Mayweather is the same.

we all know the heavyweight division is a laughing stock at the moment and this is why david haye should be able to unify the division, but whether he does is another thing, i think we will have to agree to disagree that he has a glass jaw... ive seen enough to see he has.

HW isn't in great shape. But it's better than many give credit. There are quite a few technically good, big and powerful heavies - but they are all Eastern European and few speak English. That puts the major American networks off and so the division is starved of publicity. The Ks come in for a lot of stick, but they are both excellent fighters who have dominated on merit. I can't think of too many ATG heavies who'd find a prime Vitali easy to deal with. Even guys like Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes and Tyson.

haye 'gassed' against a fighter 16 years his senior

What has age got to do with a fighter's ability? Foreman was over 50 when he regained the HW belt. The legendary Archie Moore regularly beat fighters 20+ years his junior. How old was Bernard Hopkins when he taught Kelly Pavlik a lesson - 43?

oh so i know nothing about boxing now just because i say my opinion? PREDJUDICE ?

Well, what other explanation can there be? Your arguments are absurd. I'm not saying this just to wind you up. They are absurd because they are logically flawed. You make statements of fact that when applied in the context of others fighters or fights don't make sense. You claim that because Haye was beaten or knocked down by another fighter he must have a glass jaw. But Manny Pacquiao (and a host of other great fighters I could introduce into this debate) was starched by a journeyman. By your reasoning he must (unless you're applying additional reasoning that has not been mentioned) also have a glass jaw. Which is absurd because he's a six-weight world champion and soon to be Hall of Famer.

by saying manufactured i mean by the way he has been promoted by frank warren, hand picked fights, dodging fighters who have any decent knock out rate, fighters who are the same size as him etc..

I doubt there has ever been a fighter (at least, not a modern-day fighter) who hasn't had hand-picked fights. They are woven into the fabric of the sport. Yes, there is a certain degree of fan exploitation about it. But there are also sound strategic and tactical reasons to hand-pick (a trainer may decide to give his young charge a bout against a modestly-gifted southpaw - for experience. Besides, what would be the sense in giving someone with less than ten fights under his belt a shot at the title? It would be suicide.

Boxing has always had one foot in the sporting arena and the other plonked firmly in the entertainment business. It's part of the reason the sport is so unique. Take the legendary trainer Cus D'Amato, who brought through Floyd Patterson and Mike Tyson. He was NOTORIOUS for hand-picking opponents. I mean, if ever there was a "manufactured" fighter it was Mike Tyson. Cus, lined up stiff after stiff for him to knock over whilst he hawked the then Kid Dynamite around every TV channel on the East Coast.

im not the only one who thinks this, alot of people in boxing feel the same way and know he will get found out again.
like i say he wont get my respect until he avenges his defeat to prescott or fights somebody as big and with a punch.
i was at the kotelnik fight, it was closer than what the judges gave.

Here you go again with this absurd reasoning. Remember, boxing is as much a business as it is a sport. What PURPOSE is served by having a re-match with Prescott (whom Amir has said he is willing to fight again, BTW)? Prescott's stock was in decline long before Kevin Mitchell beat him. Khan is now fighting at the top level. How many top level fighters do you know of who interrupt their careers to go and fight some mediocre fighter who happened to beat them earlier in their careers? By your reasoning Manny Pacquiao shouldn't get any respect until he avenges his defeat to Torrecampo (if he's even fighting today). And as I keep saying - Khan is only 23. There is no need for him to go tear-assing into the face of each and every big hitter in the division. Roach is doing what every good coach should - manage his fighter. Build his confidence. GRADUAL improvement. The big hitters will come if he stays unbeaten. There's no way of avoiding them.

please dont mention mayweather and mosley in the same sentence as khan roach and team khan would run a mile! i think khan will beat mallignaggi as i dont rate mallignaggi, also marquez is past it now just like barrera was...they will pick him though no doubt.

Listen, I don't care how old Marquez is. If Khan fights him soon and wins it will be a GREAT win. Marquez's game isn't reliant upon athleticism and so age doesn't come into it. He's a counterpuncher and a thinker and as such he will stay at the top far longer than most punchers. Look at Hopkins. You certainly cannot write him off because he got beat by Floyd Mayweather, arguably the finest fighter of the last 20 years.

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:33 am  

Haye's punch resistance may not be the best in the world but his defences are becoming slicker, and he's certainly no pushover like Brearley is making out. The Haye of today would have won that fight with Thompson with ease, his inexperience at the time told him he could just blast people out of there without conserving himself at all, and he came unstuck. IMO it's the best thing that's happened to him in his career.

Muggy, apart from Groves who else should we be looking out for? Frankie Gavin (very nice boxer but I'm not sure he has enough power to go all the way)? Billie Joe Saunders?

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:38 am  

Wow! Just found out that Groves will be fighting on the Mayweather vs Mosley undercard. I knew people were interested in him, but I didn't think Oscar would be just yet. They must think he has real potential to put him in such a prestigious bout.

No word about the opponent yet. I can't imagine Adam Booth will want to see him against someone really dangerous as he's not long since fought. But then, with Hayemaker you never know. It wouldn't be a surprise to see him scrapping for an intercontinental belt.

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:58 am  

A fight I would like to see somewhere down the line would be be Groves vs Matt Korobov. These 2 are brilliant prospects. Personally I'd like to see Groves fight DeGale and some point and I'd love to see Groves win, 'Chunky' just winds me up, he's like Naz without the funny interviews. He'll go far because he looks to have plenty of ability but he just seems like he's lacking the mental toughness you need to be a world champion.

Am I right in thinking Herbie Hide is fighting tonight on the Audley undercard?

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:41 pm  

I don't know. But it would make the card a bit more interesting. I like Herbie. I used to watch his fights years ago on Eurosport. Back then he was an athletic, mobile and fast Heavy with a huge right. He cut a swathe of destruction through the division right up to the top level. I remember the Michael Bentt fight, the pre-bout rooftop slugfest, Herbie knocking Bentt down early and finishing it around the sixth and then the latter's close brush with death after suffering a brain haemorrhage. Thankfully the surgeons did their stuff and he was very lucky that his quality of life was not affected. Indeed, soon after he got a gig with Michael Mann playing Sonny Liston in "Ali".

Unfortunately, Herbie's fortunes collapsed in his next bout against Riddick Bowe. Despite buzzing Bowe with a couple of big shots he was beat about the ring like a punchbag. God knows how many times he was put on the canvas.

Herbie's problem was that he was always a blown-up Cruiser. Some fighters can get away with it (Holyfield being the most obvious example), but Herbie just never had the extra physicality to survive at Heavy. Maybe if he'd been around five years earlier. But, sadly for him, his time coincided with the arrival of the Super Heavies. Guys like Lewis, Bowe and the Klitschkos were/are enormous and part of their success was in no small way a result of their sheer size. Herbie battled on for a bit and then ran into Vitali, who must have outweighed him by at least twenty pounds. It was the same story and Hide took another beating. When you think of the way heavy hitters like Hatton and Benn were blunted by going up a mere seven pounds you get an idea of what Herbie was up against.

After another defeat (to someone whose name escapes me) he kind of drifted out of the boxing scene. I was surprised when he turned up a few years later boxing out of Germany (the Germans are huge boxing fans) and down at Cruiser. Fortunately for him the Cruiser weight ceiling had been reclassified making it possible for him to just get under. So instead of being a little fish in amongst sharks at Heavy he's now the Great White at Cruiser.

Of course, age has left its mark. He still goes by the nickname "The Dancing Destroyer", but nowadays he tends more to lumber about like a pregnant Emperor penguin. And the silky smooth motion that was very much a hallmark of his early career is now a thing of the past. But he still retains the equalizer. And it's one hell of an equalizer at that. Opponents tend to be bludgeoned into submission rather than boxed. Since moving down he has put together an impressive sequence of at least ten victories. And he must be close to being in the official top 10 list of Cruisers. With his enormous power I can't imagine too many young and ambitious Cruisers will want to face him.

As for Groves vs Korobov - yes, that would be a good fight. Like Groves, Korobov has a great amateur pedigree and there are a lot of people (mainly Eastern Europeans) pushing his name forward. Although, I watched his debut fight in the States and I wasn't hugely impressed. The kid has talent, but he's also very ragged and needs the assistance of a good trainer.

I do think DeGale has shown plenty of improvement lately. A lot of people seem to think he lacks power, but he looks to filled out and that extra bit of physicality manifested itself in his last fight. He'll go a long way.

Re: Boxing Round 2 : Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:13 pm  

Quite looking forward to Audrey tonight.

Not the fight of course, the post match interview. I almost (and I stress the word almost) want him to win because there's nothing quite like watching Audley big him self up after a victory. We'll hear how he's a couple of fights away from conquering the world, and knowing just how useless he is, that's brilliant to watch!

Harrison's interview, and Haye's comments that followed on SSN yesterday was hilarious.