Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:46 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Not really, football fans used to sing FSW in unison towards Benitez every week yet nobody reacted. Many fans used to sign Adebayor's dad washes elephants, yet there was little reaction to that. If he's called him a Spanish tw*t, I imagine the majority of football will laugh it off.

But this was, allegedly, a referee not a bunch of brain dead fans. Surely players would react more strongly if they were on the receiving end of that language from a referee?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:56 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

But this was, allegedly, a referee not a bunch of brain dead fans. Surely players would react more strongly if they were on the receiving end of that language from a referee?

Of course they should have reacted more strongly if he said it, but there are too many variables to consider. When he said it, did he say it quietly to Mata? Did he say it clearly enough for Mata to have an immediate reaction? When did Mata tell his team mates it was said to him? Did his team mates hear it and tell him, or did they all hear it at the same time? I look forward to reading the investigation if they release the full information.

The monkey comment is very serious, Mikel surely wouldn't have played on in a game being refereed by somebody like that. I find it hard to believe he'd call a player a monkey and get almost no reaction, especially when you consider the reaction referees get when they make the slightest wrong call.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:37 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Of course they should have reacted more strongly if he said it, but there are too many variables to consider. When he said it, did he say it quietly to Mata? Did he say it clearly enough for Mata to have an immediate reaction? When did Mata tell his team mates it was said to him? Did his team mates hear it and tell him, or did they all hear it at the same time? I look forward to reading the investigation if they release the full information.

The monkey comment is very serious, Mikel surely wouldn't have played on in a game being refereed by somebody like that. I find it hard to believe he'd call a player a monkey and get almost no reaction, especially when you consider the reaction referees get when they make the slightest wrong call.

If he made either of the comments that he's alleged to have made, he'll be sacked, no question about it. Whether the average Joe would write it off is irrelevant, some things are unacceptable in a professional environment and both of those things certainly are.

It would be a quite incredible if he made either comment. I think it's more likely he just swore and that the allegations are just a result of their bitterness towards both the result and the allegations made towards John Terry. This is another example of a situation with an allegation and absolutely no evidence at all. At best they've got witness statements from the assistant referees, but it'll be all to easy for them to say they heard nothing because of the noise. How good is Mata's and Mikel's English? I can't I've heard either of them speak.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:58 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

If he made either of the comments that he's alleged to have made, he'll be sacked, no question about it. Whether the average Joe would write it off is irrelevant, some things are unacceptable in a professional environment and both of those things certainly are.

It would be a quite incredible if he made either comment. I think it's more likely he just swore and that the allegations are just a result of their bitterness towards both the result and the allegations made towards John Terry. This is another example of a situation with an allegation and absolutely no evidence at all. At best they've got witness statements from the assistant referees, but it'll be all to easy for them to say they heard nothing because of the noise. How good is Mata's and Mikel's English? I can't I've heard either of them speak.

What, so it's OK for you and your pals to laugh your nuts off about bluenoses calling Benitez a FSW, but it's not OK for a ref to call him a Spanish tw*t? Why is that? They are both offensive comments involving nationality as a way to degrade them. This is the type of attitude that tickles me right up, as it's idiots like you that claim there has to be a zero tolerance policy to racism and context doesn't matter. There shouldn't be a difference between a referee saying it or a group of brain dead fans, it should be equally condemned but people sweep it under the carpet when it's fans. If the FA are quite happy to have football fans chant things like FSW, or your dad washes elephants, then they should be quite happy for their referees to call players Spanish tw*ts. Is the problem the referee calling him a tw*t, or the use of the word Spanish? If it's the word tw*t, people really have no right to criticise a ref considering the amount of expletives they take. If it's the use of the word Spanish, it's never been a problem in the past so why would it be now?
I bet if you speak to the likes of Fabregas, Torres, Reina, Alonso, Cuellar and David Silva, I bet you any amount of money they will have been called similar or worse things by players and fans alike during a game, yet nothing will have been done by the FA about it.

I find it very hard to believe the ref will have said what's claimed, but I also find it very hard to believe Chelsea would be so dumb as to make a false allegation of racist/abusive language given the rough few weeks they've had. As I said, it will be interesting to read once the facts come out, the referee's assistants will be his greatest defence as I imagine they can hear things pretty clearly in the earpieces they use, if they can't then why do they bother wearing them?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:28 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

What, so it's OK for you and your pals to laugh your nuts off about bluenoses calling Benitez a FSW, but it's not OK for a ref to call him a Spanish tw*t? Why is that? They are both offensive comments involving nationality as a way to degrade them. This is the type of attitude that tickles me right up, as it's idiots like you that claim there has to be a zero tolerance policy to racism and context doesn't matter. There shouldn't be a difference between a referee saying it or a group of brain dead fans, it should be equally condemned but people sweep it under the carpet when it's fans. If the FA are quite happy to have football fans chant things like FSW, or your dad washes elephants, then they should be quite happy for their referees to call players Spanish tw*ts. Is the problem the referee calling him a tw*t, or the use of the word Spanish? If it's the word tw*t, people really have no right to criticise a ref considering the amount of expletives they take. If it's the use of the word Spanish, it's never been a problem in the past so why would it be now?
I bet if you speak to the likes of Fabregas, Torres, Reina, Alonso, Cuellar and David Silva, I bet you any amount of money they will have been called similar or worse things by players and fans alike during a game, yet nothing will have been done by the FA about it.

Supporters calling someone a fat Spanish waiter is hardly the same. That is the kind of jibe people can expect in the sporting limelight and as insults go it's a very mild, borderline friendly one. You may not like that, but you'll never stop it either. Every player will have been abused by opposition fans, but that's the way it is. Referee's by their very definition are supposed to exemplify the attitudes of the sport they represent, so yes, it's far more serious for a referee to use discriminatory language than a supporter, the nature of the word is irrelevant. A referee would get in trouble for simply swearing, it's against FA guidelines, I'll bet it's in the terms and conditions of their employment how they're expected to behave.

The separate thinking for professionals and non-professionals applies everywhere in life. If you go into McDonalds and swear because you've had bad service, they'll at worst ask you politely to leave. If a McDonalds employee called you a name and swore at you, you'd expect him to be sacked, and he would be.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:38 pm  

Police apparently involved and pundits on 5 Live calling for the situation to be dealt with quickly, as if it is somehow of national importance.

The idea that the police / criminal justice system should somehow prioritise this case, just because football is involved, is ridiculous.

Some irony in Chelsea fans calling for Clattenburg to be sacked, whilst they still worship Terry.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:02 pm  

The Video Ref wrote:

Police apparently involved and pundits on 5 Live calling for the situation to be dealt with quickly, as if it is somehow of national importance.

I think it does need to be swiftly dealt with. The sport has had it's image dragged through the gutter by the likes of Suarez and Terry and could do without another racism case dragged out over the next 6 months. Both of those cases were kept in the limelight as everyday someone new would come out and give their opinion or express their outrage, which would then be discussed and counter argued. Football doesn't need it again. He either said those things or he didn't. Either way, deal with it this week and move on. If they are still discussing it by Saturday it's too long.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:18 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

Supporters calling someone a fat Spanish waiter is hardly the same. That is the kind of jibe people can expect in the sporting limelight and as insults go it's a very mild, borderline friendly one. You may not like that, but you'll never stop it either. Every player will have been abused by opposition fans, but that's the way it is. Referee's by their very definition are supposed to exemplify the attitudes of the sport they represent, so yes, it's far more serious for a referee to use discriminatory language than a supporter, the nature of the word is irrelevant. A referee would get in trouble for simply swearing, it's against FA guidelines, I'll bet it's in the terms and conditions of their employment how they're expected to behave.

The separate thinking for professionals and non-professionals applies everywhere in life. If you go into McDonalds and swear because you've had bad service, they'll at worst ask you politely to leave. If a McDonalds employee called you a name and swore at you, you'd expect him to be sacked, and he would be.

Yes, but if you're a cleaner in McDonalds and all of the staff swear their heads off at you, then all of the customers swear their heads off at you. Is it really unfair if you retaliate/make one/two bad comment/s? How is it fair to condemn a ref for discriminatory language when it's more than likely most of the players use it on the field every week? What the referee has allegedly said is wrong, what's even worse though is the way people like yourself think it's borderline friendly to call somebody a Fat Spanish Waiter. Do you think Benitez found it funny? If he was offended by it (which I imagine he was, it's not pleasant, especially when sang with such an intent to humiliate), surely any other defence of it goes out of the window if we use your logic from the previous case with Suarez. Or is this another case of welcome to Britain, it's our rules and we'll do as we like?

The problem with the McDonalds analogy is the ref didn't swear at a customer, he swore at another player. I don't know what the FA guidelines are you speak of, but I imagine referees can be relaxed on occasions on the field and can probably let a few expletives go. The problem clearly isn't swearing, the problem is the use of the word Spanish in a discriminatory way. A player wouldn't make a complaint if the referee had said "stop being a tw*t", or "grow up you soft tw*t", it simply wouldn't happen and you know it, as the players dish out far worse every week.

The problem with the separate thinking is there shouldn't be a separate thinking when it comes to discrimination and 'racism'. We are told there should be a zero tolerance policy to it, whether it's a drunk scrub on the streets or a headmaster at a school, racism shouldn't be tolerated in any form is the message we're all forced to accept, so why should thousands of fans get away with it "because they're fans"? I understand the need to make examples of people in the limelight, they have to set the right example, but surely something isn't right if an FA won't act on thousands of fans singing FSW or your dad washes elephants, but they will possibly act on somebody saying Spanish tw*t. If they were consistent, they'd have said to the clubs that sung the chants that their fans would be banned if it carried on being sang, but they didn't, it was ignored.

If the entire Kop stand started doing monkey chants/gestures towards Evra next time we play United, will the FA condemn their behaviour, or will it be ignored because they're non-professionals? Will they fine Liverpool? Will they threaten with possible bans? What if the Kop stand sang "you're just a French African w*nker" towards him, would that be condemned or would it be seen as friendly? What if that chant became a regular occurrence at every ground? Would the FA have to act, or would they ignore like they have done with previous vile chants? You see, we expect teams in Europe to be banned if their fans don't behave, look at the reaction to the Serbian U21s as an example, yet we don't carry out similar actions when our fans use nationality to discriminate players/managers. You can't ask for a zero tolerance policy towards a referee's language but completely ignore the behaviour of thousands of fans.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:58 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Yes, but if you're a cleaner in McDonalds and all of the staff swear their heads off at you, then all of the customers swear their heads off at you. Is it really unfair if you retaliate/make one/two bad comment/s? How is it fair to condemn a ref for discriminatory language when it's more than likely most of the players use it on the field every week? What the referee has allegedly said is wrong, what's even worse though is the way people like yourself think it's borderline friendly to call somebody a Fat Spanish Waiter. Do you think Benitez found it funny? If he was offended by it (which I imagine he was, it's not pleasant, especially when sang with such an intent to humiliate), surely any other defence of it goes out of the window if we use your logic from the previous case with Suarez. Or is this another case of welcome to Britain, it's our rules and we'll do as we like?

The problem with the McDonalds analogy is the ref didn't swear at a customer, he swore at another player. I don't know what the FA guidelines are you speak of, but I imagine referees can be relaxed on occasions on the field and can probably let a few expletives go. The problem clearly isn't swearing, the problem is the use of the word Spanish in a discriminatory way. A player wouldn't make a complaint if the referee had said "stop being a tw*t", or "grow up you soft tw*t", it simply wouldn't happen and you know it, as the players dish out far worse every week.

The problem with the separate thinking is there shouldn't be a separate thinking when it comes to discrimination and 'racism'. We are told there should be a zero tolerance policy to it, whether it's a drunk scrub on the streets or a headmaster at a school, racism shouldn't be tolerated in any form is the message we're all forced to accept, so why should thousands of fans get away with it "because they're fans"? I understand the need to make examples of people in the limelight, they have to set the right example, but surely something isn't right if an FA won't act on thousands of fans singing FSW or your dad washes elephants, but they will possibly act on somebody saying Spanish tw*t. If they were consistent, they'd have said to the clubs that sung the chants that their fans would be banned if it carried on being sang, but they didn't, it was ignored.

If the entire Kop stand started doing monkey chants/gestures towards Evra next time we play United, will the FA condemn their behaviour, or will it be ignored because they're non-professionals? Will they fine Liverpool? Will they threaten with possible bans? What if the Kop stand sang "you're just a French African w*nker" towards him, would that be condemned or would it be seen as friendly? What if that chant became a regular occurrence at every ground? Would the FA have to act, or would they ignore like they have done with previous vile chants? You see, we expect teams in Europe to be banned if their fans don't behave, look at the reaction to the Serbian U21s as an example, yet we don't carry out similar actions when our fans use nationality to discriminate players/managers. You can't ask for a zero tolerance policy towards a referee's language but completely ignore the behaviour of thousands of fans.

I'm not saying you are wrong here, but it's a crusade to save the world you are proposing. You can't make 80,000 people behave appropriately, it's just not logistically possible. The authorities do fine clubs for their fans behaviour and chanting and get the Police to try to find the most serious culprits, but as a lot of those people are different every week and don't buy tickets in their own name, stopping them becomes impossible. It would be great if everyone could be respectful to each other, but such is the way of life.

Ref's you can do something about. They are paid to do a job and will have a code that tells them how to behave.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:18 am  

Conroy wrote:

Regarding the Torres sending off, I think the way he went down was why he got sent off. Had he just gone down he'd have got the foul, but because he went down with that sort of twisty thing they all do that makes it look like they're in an action film and grabbed his leg about 6 inches above the contact he was deemed to have dove.

I've just seen it now for the first time, he definitely went down far far too easy after any contact was made.