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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:12 pm  
Panda Antics wrote:
Most exciting heavyweight fighter since Tyson.


Since Lewis. The way he dealt with Ruddock was eye opening. Eventually he put on more weight and became a more methodical fighter, if perhaps more boring.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:55 pm  
I thoroughly enjoyed that last night. Good atmosphere at the MEN arena and to see four knock downs and 9 rounds was worth the money. He HAS to fight the Klitchkos now.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:24 pm  
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I thoroughly enjoyed that last night. Good atmosphere at the MEN arena and to see four knock downs and 9 rounds was worth the money. He HAS to fight the Klitchkos now.


I doubt he CAN fight either now. Remember, Haye was forced to trade three fights under King/Sauerland (Kessler's promoter) for a shot at Valuev. Those guys will want their cut of the cake before he takes on a risky bout against either K. The smart money is on a re-match with Valuev as well as a fight with someone like Chagaev or maybe even Arreola before any unification bout.

Not what the fans want to see, but perhaps a blessing because - at this moment - Haye stands very little chance of beating either Klitschko. For all the big shots and knockdowns it's wise to remember:

1. Ruiz is not a top heavyweight (and his ranking reflects this). The guy had practically no defence other than to allow Haye's fist to break upon that rock he calls a head. Wladimir has an excellent defence (built around a brute of a jab) whereas Vitali has a bus for a chin.

2. Haye's defence is crap. Throughout that fight he was wide open to the counterpunch (someone needs to tell him to keep his phucking guard up) and was caught on three or four occasions. Fortunately his reflexes allowed him to slip the full force of those shots (not that Ruiz is a massive hitter anyway), but if he fights like that against either K (especially Wladimir) he'll get starched.

I mean, there were some good signs last night. Haye showed that he's retained his CW speed (which is they key to beating either K). He also showed genuine HW power and - best of all - he had the wit to throttle back when Ruiz got over his first round difficulties so that he didn't gas out in the later rounds (impressive, given that he's carrying an extra 20lbs).

What he needs to do now is: a) Develop his defence. Keep those hands high at all times and b) Develop his killer instinct. The latter is very important because on a couple of occasions when he had Ruiz in trouble he rushed in like a fool, throwing wild bombs that were there to be countered and burning up vital energy. Had that been either K he could easily have walked onto a bomb and that would have been the end of it. When the other guy is in trouble he must take a moment to compose himself and look only toward throwing targeted blows.

If he wises up I give him a 40/60 chance against either brother. For sure he has the speed and power to trouble them, but let's make no mistake here - the Ks haven't dominated the HW division for years through luck. They are both good technicians. Wlad is harder to hit but probably easier to KO. Vitali is the opposite. And both carry the equaliser.

Moving away from Haye - I was a bit disappointed with the undercard. George Groves was easily the highlight. I've been saying for two years this kid is the most talented prospect we've seen in Britain since Hamed. He has everything - a drill of a jab (which he doesn't use enough), hellish body punching, KO power in both fists, good counter-work (his short right is lethal), solid chin and a crowd-pleasing style. He put away a limited, but very durable opponent for a recognised belt in something like his eighth pro fight. That's some achievement.

Credit to Adam Booth for bumping his schedule. He could have easily done a Frank Warren and milked the kid against twenty tomato cans before giving him a shot at a belt. I wonder how long it will be before James DeGale (a Warren fighter who turned pro at the same time) gets a similar chance. I actually think DeGale is a lot better fighter than many give credit. He's filling out nicely at SMW (showing well in his last fight) and he now looks to be adding power to his prodigious boxing skills.

Felt a bit sorry for Colin Lynes. He's been a good pro for a number of years. Solid technician who just lacked that extra bit of power to make the difference.

Not sure WTF is happening with Jamie Moore. As usual he boxed like a moron against a guy who was always going to be a hard nut. The sad thing is Moore is A LOT better fighter than he appears. Unfortunately with him whenever the bell sounds tactics go out the window and he becomes obsessed with going toe-to-toe with fighters who he could easily beat if he boxed clever. I think his career is almost certainly over. Despite going up a weight he says he's still having problems losing the pounds. In the post-match interview he said he might go up another division. But if he's struggling to hurt a tough but modestly-gifted opponent at this weight he's no chance of hurting opponents another weight up.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:22 am  
I just don't see the big deal with the Klitchkos like some. They are effective in what they do (boring as f*ck to be honest), but nobody has ever tested them. They won't have faced anyone as quick or as powerful as Haye. The last time Vitali fought anyone decent was Lennox Lewis and he got battered. They are fighting in the weakest division with very little competition.

Haye has his flaws, but his head movement, speed and power is better than anything in the division.

I genuinely believe Haye can beat both, he just needs to box very smart and not try and bomb them out of there in one round.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:08 pm  
Is it just me or is Adam Booth a top, top trainer?
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:13 pm  
Matt23 wrote:
Is it just me or is Adam Booth a top, top trainer?


It's not just you, trust me. He's done a great job with Haye.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:46 pm  
Blobbynator wrote:
I just don't see the big deal with the Klitchkos like some. They are effective in what they do (boring as f*ck to be honest), but nobody has ever tested them. They won't have faced anyone as quick or as powerful as Haye. The last time Vitali fought anyone decent was Lennox Lewis and he got battered. They are fighting in the weakest division with very little competition.


It depends how you define the word "battered". Yes, his face looked like a side of corned beef when the fight was called off. But let's not forget that Vitali had Lennox in all sorts of trouble in the first three rounds (watch it on YT). He was hit with more BIG shots in nine minutes than he received in his previous nine fights. Yes, he did rally in the fourth (hitting Vitali with a monstrous uppercut that he just took) and yes, he did look like he was getting himself back in the fight. But the fact remains Lennox was down on all the judges scorecards and when the ring doctor called an end to it all he looked absolutely phucked on his stool. I doubt he had more than a round left in the tank. The crowd sided with Vitali and Lennox looked very sheepish when interviewed.

I have mixed feelings toward the Ks. They ARE a lot better fighters than people give credit, but there's no doubt they are boring to watch. But then, the same criticism was said of Lewis for much of his career. He only really got the respect he deserved when he put Rahman away in the rematch.

Vitali is definitely the superior fighter. He lacks Wladimir's power (although not by much), but his defence and chin are better, making him a much tougher opponent. That said, I watched him in his last fight and he looked old. Too many injuries. Too much time away from the sport. It all adds up.

Under Steward, Wlad has turned into a very cagey customer. His tactics are pretty simple - keep the fight at distance behind his excellent jab, clinch if an opponent does manage to get inside (not easy) and look to unload the straight right (which is a bomb - check out Wlad's KO %) past the sixth when his opponent is beginning to tire.

To beat Wlad you need to be fast. Fast enough to get inside and deliver a heavy shot before he wraps those bear arms around you. If I were Adam Booth I'd tell Haye to fight almost in a semi-crouch. There's no way Haye's chin can hold up to more than a handful of those straight rights so he's got to try and take away that weapon. For a fighter staying low the counterpunch is the uppercut, but Wlad doesn't really have one so he'll be forced to hit downward, which takes away some of his power. Crouch and circle away from the punch.

The only way he's going to win is by forcing Wlad to fight outside of his comfort zone. He'll want to keep Haye at bay (he'll be very wary of Haye's power) - soften him up and then take him out in the latter rounds. Haye can't afford to fight to Wlad's tune. He MUST be aggressive. He MUST beat him to the punch and he MUST use his natural advantage of speed.

Haye has his flaws, but his head movement, speed and power is better than anything in the division.


It's dangerous to think like this. The HW division isn't as bad as you think. Sure, there are no Joe Fraziers or George Foremans knocking about, but there ARE plenty of solid, heavy-hitting and tough opponents who can take Haye into deep water. Guys like Chagaev, Boytsov, Povetkin and Arreola are much better than Ruiz and would give Haye a host of difficulties. Far more sobering is the fact that Wlad isn't threatened in the least by any of these grizzled pros.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:53 pm  
Matt23 wrote:
Is it just me or is Adam Booth a top, top trainer?


I think Booth is probably the best promoter in Britain (he's certainly revolutionised the British fight scene) and has a sharp business brain. I'm not sure about him as a trainer. I think he's very clued up on the psychology of boxing. But Haye's open guard doesn't do Booth much credit.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:33 am  
Fair points Muggy, noticed that Groves' guard was open for quite alot of his fight as well. Seeing alot more low guards up at the top level these days in actual fact, Froch being the worst culprit of all of course.

How far does everyone think Groves can go? Surely the dream fight is a grudge match with DeGale? Not sure DeGale really fancies it at this moment in time though, he's rather fight a few more tomato cans. Groves ma not in fact be as talented as DeGale, but he's already gained far more valuable experience in the pro ring than DeGale has IMO.
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Re: Boxing Round 2 : Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:57 pm  
Haye's performance considering he hadn't sparred for a month, and was clearly a little bit out of shape was superb - I think he finished the fight with 40% punch success rate. His defense was poor at times, but I'm sure he'll be working very hard on that. I'd like to see him move his head more and keep his hands higher. Personnally I see no reason why he can't beat the K brothers. Vitalli is almost 40(?), and is getting slower with each fight, and Vlad has always had a glass jaw, and if Haye lands one of his bombs on him its all over.
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