Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:48 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Agree entirely, though I suppose its what you judge a great manager on??

Only last week LGJM was slating David Moyes for not taking the League Cup seriously and accused him of being unambitious, yet many would argue that Moyes has done a better job in more difficult circumstances at Goodison, than Mourihno has ever encountered.

David Moyes has managed Everton for 10 years. In those 10 years he has managed a total of zero trophies. He has managed a team in one final.

In the time that Moyes has been at Everton, Mourinho has managed 4 teams, winning the league with each one of them. He has won 14 major trophies.

David Moyes is a champion of treading water. Jose Mourinho is Michael Phelps.

As you say, to judge Mourihno (or any manager) properly he has to face different challenges and overcome them.....We'll never know how good Moyes actually is until he gets a job at a United or a Chelsea.

He'd never get the Chelsea job. There's no way that he'd even be considered with a record of 0 trophies.

The United job is a case of waiting until Fergie retires. IMO when that happens he might be considered, but there will be at least 5 candidates who blow him out of the water. He'd only get the job if none of them wanted the job. And I don't think Man United will struggle that much to get their man.

But many, many bigger clubs with better prospects have changed manager while Moyes has been facing the same treading water challenge. Why hasn't he shown what he can do with one of them?

Similarly, could Mourihno do a job at a club like Everton, because until he takes a challenge like that, he can't be truly classed as a great?

Mourinho managed at Leira. When he took over, with 7 games left of the season, they finished in their highest ever position of 5th. The next season, they were contesting for 3rd and 4th spot, when Porto came calling.

He then went and won two titles with Porto, plus the UEFA and CL in consecutive seasons.

Since then he's been continually fighting at the pinnacle of football. He's shown that he can perform very well at a small team, earned promotions and proved he can handle pretty much every level.

Love him, or loathe him, Alex Ferguson is somebody who has truly taken all challenges, small club to big trophies, big club from doldrums to glory, keeping big club at the top, and succeeded in them all....He is a genuine great.

Keeping Man United at the top has been a big challenge? He's always been in the position of massive power. Whenever a side has been given a chance to fight on level terms - Blackburn, Chelsea, Citeh, he's lost.

He's won 2 CL titles. Even though he's managed one of the most powerful clubs in every campaign. Mourinho has won 2 CL titles in less than half the time. Taking a complete outsider to the trophy and a big side who hadn't looked likely to win it.

In the 10 years that Mourinho has been a manager Mourinho has won 7 titles and 2 CL's. Fersuson has won 5 titles and 1 CL. Mourinho beats him on trophy count and he wipes the floor with him on the "different challenges" aspect.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:03 pm  

Why would Mourinho take on a lesser team when he's constantly in demand by the top clubs? It quite simply makes no sense. He's also proved in the past he can win with a so called lesser team when he won the CL with Porto.

You won't see anybody build a club from the bottom up and have low spells these days. Footballs too demanding and you don't get a chance to lead a team through a bad spell, you get sacked. If you make a success of it a better offer inevitably comes in.

Mourinho is one of the GOATs.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:08 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

When he left Inter Milan they had just won the Italian Cup, The Italian League and the Champions League.

Chelsea struggled so much that they would have finished the league level on points with the champions if they hadn't lost it when news came through that United had won their game and threw away a goal at the death. They struggled so much that they lost that seasons CL final on penalties.

Porto had just won the league and CL. They cashed in on the CL win and sold most of their players. They then went and appointed a manager and sacked him before the season started. They finished 2nd in the league. That was Mourinho's fault?

Just say he went to Everton. He'd probably get half the money he could get somewhere else. Say he continually achieved top 4, won the league cup and FA Cup. The Roddy's would be pointing to that and saying "See, he's not that good then."

Creating a successful side doesn't amount to leaving them in a great position. Look at all of the players that have left since, Inter have struggled since he left, why didn't he stay to oversee the 'next generation'? Does the immediate season after show the immediate results of how he left the club? Avram Grant came in and actually improved on where Mourinho was taking the team, but after he left things hardly got better, did they? He left Inter in a pretty much lose/lose situation. The owners were never going to get rid of the players that had done the club so well under Mourinho, but the club had absolutely no foresight and now they are paying with an average side.

Porto struggled after Mourinho left, I'll say that he couldn't really dictate the way he left Porto so if I criticised him for that, I'll retract any criticism I gave him for that. I can see it with Madrid now, he has Ronaldo and so on, but there are so many rumours about dressing room issues and problems between players. He'll leave at the end of this season, the next manager will be an AVB type, a sacrificial lamb to alert the club and fans that big changes will be needed. Everybody will say the next manager won't be able to cope in Mourinho's shadow, but for me it will just be Jose leaving the club in the lurch. He's in a position at Madrid where he has stupendous amounts of power compared to previous managers, but it won't be enough. He could turn that club into a juggernaut, a force in Europe and Spain, he could change the club from top to bottom, but he'll probably leave and go to PSG or Citeh, or even take a bit of a break. He's a good manager, but he could be so much better.

If he went to Everton and consistently achieved top 4 on the Moyes budget, I'd herald him as a demi-God and accept that he's the best manager going. It won't happen, he won't take over and he wouldn't get them in the top 4 even if he did.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:14 pm  

The camera angle is horrible on the ITV coverage. It feels like you are falling onto the pitch whenever they pan towards the bottom of the screen where the camera is. It's making me feel sea sick. Is it just me?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:26 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Keeping Man United at the top has been a big challenge? He's always been in the position of massive power. Whenever a side has been given a chance to fight on level terms - Blackburn, Chelsea, Citeh, he's lost.

He's won 2 CL titles. Even though he's managed one of the most powerful clubs in every campaign. Mourinho has won 2 CL titles in less than half the time. Taking a complete outsider to the trophy and a big side who hadn't looked likely to win it.

In the 10 years that Mourinho has been a manager Mourinho has won 7 titles and 2 CL's. Fersuson has won 5 titles and 1 CL. Mourinho beats him on trophy count and he wipes the floor with him on the "different challenges" aspect.

......And there we have it, LGJM has more or less admitted he started following football when Chelsea started winning after this load of nonsense.

So Ferguson taking ABERDEEN from obscurity to actually overhauling the Old Firm in Scotland is not a fantastic acheivement??.....Or taking Aberdeen to a European trophy, beating a certain Real Madrid, is just average?

When he took over United they were dogshit....They were in a far worse state than Liverpool are at the moment, and most people admit that whoever gets Liverpool back on top of the pile again will be some sort of miracle worker, so what does that make Ferguson's acheivevment at United?

It sounds far fetched now, but back in 86/87 if you said that United would go on to dominate English football in the way they have done, you would have been laughed out of town.

As for being beaten whenever a side has posed a challenge, then what's with all the titles they have won in the last few years, when faced with the power of the Abramovich funded Chelsea???

To say that Mourihno is superior to Ferguson is surely a joke??....A good manager he is, but until he goes to a struggling club and creates a dynasty like Ferguson has done, then he cannot be lauded as the better manager.

Maybe, if he had stayed at Chelsea and dominated English and European football then he could rightly claim that title, but for now he definitely isn't - It sounds crazy, but Liverpool would be a great test for Mourihno...A sleeping giant that has the potential to be very, very big again. It would be a true test.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:56 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

SNIP

Fergie was very lucky to get 4 years to win a trophy and 6 years to win the league at the start with Man United.

Wenger has been very lucky to have got the 7 years (and counting) of trophyless seasons without serious risk to his job.

Mourinho committed the crime of just winning the FA Cup for Chelsea (after two seasons of winning the league) and he was out of the door.

He could very easily win the league again with Real and be out of the door for not winning the CL.

IMO I don't think Mourinho leaves Real without being sacked unless he wins the CL.

Even with Mourinho's record, there's no way he'd get 3 years at Real to build the club for long term success. They don't like him enough, he doesn't like them enough. I think he leaves after winning the CL with them or they just get rid of him because they didn't score 25 Maradona-type 30 yard dribbled goals that season (they actually got 24 and the ref disallowed the 25th because Ronaldo was part tripped on the way so he took it back for a free kick).

If Mourinho wins La Liga this year and has another CL semi defeat, gets sacked, then many people will put that down as a Mourinho failure.

Even if Mourinho wins the CL with Real this season many people will stay say that it was too easy anyway and still say Fergie is better.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:11 pm  

Good to see Di Natale hasn't lost any of his class. Caramelised Liverpool in that second half.

For all the commentators went on and on about how well Liverpool played again, it's such a poor team. Rodgers would probably be outstanding at a club like Madrid, Barca or Chelsea. But he has to realise his way of playing isn't going to work with those players. Downing, Henderson, Allen, Assaidi in midfield? Not one of them did anything. Downing in particular has completely lost whatever he had before his Liverpool move, he's now a poor man's James Milner. Allen's a decent water carrier, it's useful to carry one of those if you have 4 or 5 world class attacking players, but when you've got none it doesn't really matter that he shovels balls between Downing and Assiadi all night does it? Jamie Carragher still playing in 2012? He's the football version of Paul Wellens, it's an absolute farce that he's still strolling around in a Liverpool shirt.

Borini is a mystery, how on earth did he score in Serie A? If I was in charge there I'd stick Sahin in midfield with Shelvey with Gerrard up front with the Suaz. He's got no legs any more so him pretending he's a box to box midfielder is a waste of energy for him. Stick him right up front and get him on the end of all the half chances Suarez and Borini mess up, like Everton did with Fellaini early in the season.

Rodgers has moaned on about Suarez not getting penalties because he's got a reputation as a diver. He brings him on and he jumps 4 feet into the air, with pike, twist and a flawless landing complete with roll and screaming and he didn't even touch him. He must be tearing his hair out.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:44 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

:lol: ......And there we have it, LGJM has more or less admitted he started following football when Chelsea started winning after this load of nonsense.

I'm sure your parents have told you this many times before, but people don't want to inspect your #2's. Wipe properly, then flush the toilet, wash your hands and get on with your day.

So Ferguson taking ABERDEEN from obscurity to actually overhauling the Old Firm in Scotland is not a fantastic acheivement??.....Or taking Aberdeen to a European trophy, beating a certain Real Madrid, is just average?

What Fergie did at Aberdeen was fantastic. Although I'm not sure their previous 2nd place league finish is quite the obscurity you claim.

I'm not diminishing Fergie's success at Aberdeen, I was simply comparing the 10 years that Mourinho has managed with the last 10 years of Fergie's reign.

When he took over United they were dogshit....They were in a far worse state than Liverpool are at the moment, and most people admit that whoever gets Liverpool back on top of the pile again will be some sort of miracle worker, so what does that make Ferguson's acheivevment at United?

Even though Man United were poor when he came, they were still the biggest and most powerful club in the country. I remember Nigel Kennedy, the celebrity violinist Villa fan, saying at half time of a televised game that if Man United ever got it right on the pitch, the size of the club made them untouchable.

Fergie was given the time and the money to make them untouchable. Sky TV made them even more powerful. The CL made them even more powerful.

Liverpool face far more challenges than Man United did. They face the competition of Man United, Abramovich's Chelsea, the Sheikh's Citeh and Arsenal. They cannot expand their ground like Man United were able to. In the modern game, there's no way that a manager will get 4 years of trophyless football to build. Dalglish, one of the club's biggest legends, was turfed out after winning the League Cup and reaching the FA Cup Final.

2012 LFC is just not comparable to 1986 Man United.

It sounds far fetched now, but back in 86/87 if you said that United would go on to dominate English football in the way they have done, you would have been laughed out of town.

I don't know when the Kennedy comment was, but just from what he said I suspect it was before they'd won their first title under Fergie.

As for being beaten whenever a side has posed a challenge, then what's with all the titles they have won in the last few years, when faced with the power of the Abramovich funded Chelsea???

More down to Abramovich screwing up and messing with Mourinho, then getting rid of him. Blackburn were built for one title and then Walker was happy. Citeh, we'll see.

To say that Mourihno is superior to Ferguson is surely a joke??....A good manager he is, but until he goes to a struggling club and creates a dynasty like Ferguson has done, then he cannot be lauded as the better manager.

He can be lauded as the better manager because he's won more trophies, at 4 different clubs, in the last 10 years. He's equalled Fergie's CL in half the time it took Fergie.

What dynasties are there to create? Man United were unique in their history, their lack of success and their potential. Fergie didn't create it, he was just lucky to be given the time and resources that the sleeping giant could be awoken again.

Maybe, if he had stayed at Chelsea and dominated English and European football then he could rightly claim that title, but for now he definitely isn't - It sounds crazy, but Liverpool would be a great test for Mourihno...A sleeping giant that has the potential to be very, very big again. It would be a true test.

It was Chelsea's screw up that they got rid of Mourinho. The fact he's won titles at Inter and Real, and the CL at Inter show just what Chelsea should have been holding on to.

As I've said, LFC 2012 is not the same as MU in the 80's. They need a brand new, ~£300m stadium and a couple of hundred million on the field. Unless there's another Arab sniffing around, they ain't getting it. And even if they did the competition is so much stronger now than it was.

Obviously Fergie's age is an issue, but no one would suggest that he should go to Liverpool and do there what he did at United. Because he'd fail at that just like anybody would.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:35 pm  

Seriously Saddened, why do you even bother? Sheer dross as ever.

Felt we played well tonight but again, our biggest problem remains our defence and our inability to control the opposition without the ball. We attack well and create plenty of chances, we've outplayed most of the sides we've played this year (apart from Arsenal), the problem remains keeping them out. In the past, even if we couldn't break a side down, we'd keep a clean sheet easily, but that solidity is now gone and teams are free to go at us however they want. It was another one of those 'luck' nights tonight, Suarez's free kick was magisterial but our own poor defending never gave us a chance.

Udinese were rank average tonight, they were the stereotypical Europa league side, but they turned up, got three points and didn't play at all well. We played well but lost, the balance isn't there and the solidity at the back is missing. A lot of talk is about bringing in a striker in January, but I'd look at a centre half if Wisdom or Kelly aren't going there.

[John_D]

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:51 am  

My employers were offering Udinese at 5/1 early yesterday. Suffice to say that were I tha gambling type, I'd have been all over that. Outrageous value