Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:14 am  

Steven Gerrard wrote:

But there is no two ways about it, if there was no Roman Abramovich (Chelsea owner) or the guy (Sheikh Mansour) who bought Manchester City I'd have two or three league titles sitting here now.

Liverpool have never been second to Chelsea in the league. They were 5th, 3rd and 7th when Chelsea won the league.

Man City have won the title once, Liverpool were 8th.

So where would these two or three title wins be coming from?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:43 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

You don't rate John Terry and you don't rate Jose Mourinho too highly either.

Not biased at all though, are you?

Mourinho is a good manager, I just think he needs to be challenged more to be considered the GOAT. It's impressive being able to go to a club, spend stupendous amounts, win a few things then pack up and leave, but I'd like to see him build a club up from top to bottom, to oversee the bad periods and bring a club through the varying 'cycles' that clubs go through. It's not that I don't think he's capable, I just feel if he's as good as people claim he is, he could do something like this and show the world that not only is he a successful manager, but he can build great clubs that consistently win.

As for Terry, I think if you look at his abilities as a player, he really isn't that great. Slow, not great on the ball, generally dependant on his partner if he moves outside of the penalty area, struggles in 1v1 situations and lives off this reputation for being brave, which for me is an absolute myth. What does he do that's brave? Knee Alexis Sanchez in the back? Block shots with his hands all the time? I don't think I've ever seen a footballer do anything 'brave', not consistently anyway, yet it's the word always used when describing Terry. Terry has his strengths as a player, much like Carragher did for us over the years, but there's no doubting his flaws and how inferior he is to some of the better defenders over recent years. Compare him to the likes of Nesta, Thuram and Lucio, he's a pub player in comparison.

[John_D]

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:54 am  

Dortmund should have killed City off before it, but..... that's never a penalty. Unless defenders have to start removing limbs to avoid the ball touching them, no way was that intentional.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:05 pm  

John_D wrote:

Dortmund should have killed City off before it, but..... that's never a penalty. Unless defenders have to start removing limbs to avoid the ball touching them, no way was that intentional.

Clear penalty.

What was he trying to do with his arm sticking out like that? Scare away crows?

Didn't realise until last night just how hard Citeh's CL groups have been. They really have been screwed with the 2 groups they've been drawn in.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:04 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Mourinho is a good manager, I just think he needs to be challenged more to be considered the GOAT. It's impressive being able to go to a club, spend stupendous amounts, win a few things then pack up and leave, but I'd like to see him build a club up from top to bottom, to oversee the bad periods and bring a club through the varying 'cycles' that clubs go through. It's not that I don't think he's capable, I just feel if he's as good as people claim he is, he could do something like this and show the world that not only is he a successful manager, but he can build great clubs that consistently win.

That's an extremely subjective, exacting and narrow definition you have of what it takes to be a great manager. In the modern game you're unlikely to encounter that manager because people are crying out for good managers every year so any hint of potential and a bigger club is in for them. You wouldn't apply the same exacting criteria for a player so why do it for a manager? What's so different that you feel a manager has to stay and build a club up from the bottom before they can be classed as great? Mourinho has won league titles in four different countries. Four. Admittedly with three teams that had a good chance but show me a manager who has done it with crappy teams.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:52 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Mourinho has won league titles in four different countries. Four. Admittedly with three teams that had a good chance but show me a manager who has done it with crappy teams.

The titles aren't even the biggest achievement. Winning the CL with Porto and Inter are more impressive than the titles. Neither Porto or Inter over spent to win the CL.

At Chelsea he lead them into being one of the strongest sides in the CL, but never quite made it. In his 2 years at Real he's had 2 semi finals, in the 6 seasons before they fell at the first knockout stage.

I do think he needs to add longevity to his record or the accusation will always follow him that he can only deliver short term bursts of success. But I think he's going to probably go where he can earn the most, and most likely that will be a Citeh, United or back to Chelsea where he'll get paid and have money to spend too.

Of course Liverpool are going to be sensitive over managers having narrow records because Shankly and Paisley were always being criticised because they never achieved anything outside Liverpool.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:07 pm  

McClennan wrote:

That's an extremely subjective, exacting and narrow definition you have of what it takes to be a great manager. In the modern game you're unlikely to encounter that manager because people are crying out for good managers every year so any hint of potential and a bigger club is in for them. You wouldn't apply the same exacting criteria for a player so why do it for a manager? What's so different that you feel a manager has to stay and build a club up from the bottom before they can be classed as great? Mourinho has won league titles in four different countries. Four. Admittedly with three teams that had a good chance but show me a manager who has done it with crappy teams.

I never said that's what it takes to be a great manager, it's what I feel Mourinho should do to cement himself as the GOAT.

Mourinho has won four leagues managing arguably the biggest or richest sides in each of their leagues, his achievements are fantastic, but if he's a more capable manager than SAF or Wenger or whoever, for me it would be nice to see him stick out the tough times instead of packing up and leaving clubs to struggle. For me, what Fergie has achieved at United makes anything Mourinho achieves almost impossible to measure against. He's took his club through so many 'eras', through so many highs and lows. IMO, the very best managers change a club from top to bottom, they shake up the academies, they bring through youngsters and they leave their stamp from top to bottom. It's a simplistic view, but I think Wenger, Fergie, Guardiola and a whole host of top managers could have achieved what Mourinho has with Inter, Chelsea and Real Madrid. His greatest achievement still remains his achievements at Porto, but he could achieve so much more if he is as great as he says he is.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:35 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Of course Liverpool are going to be sensitive over managers having narrow records because Shankly and Paisley were always being criticised because they never achieved anything outside Liverpool.

It's nothing to do with Liverpool. I've had many arguments with Liverpool fans because I'd be against us appointing Mourinho. It's not that I don't rate him, it's not that there are better managers out there, it's that he wouldn't suit us as a club and isn't the type of manager we need at this moment in time.

Mourinho doesn't need to do anything for the majority of people to enhance their view of him, many hold him in just as high a regard as the likes of Fergie and so on. I just think he's a more than capable manager who seems to be avoiding the 'building' challenge, if you will. He left Inter in a bit of a mess, Chelsea and Porto struggled after he left and he'll probably leave Madrid as the 'cycle' begins to end, much like Guardiola just has with Barca. As you say, he'll go where the money is, but would it not be good to see him go for a bit of an underdog? Try his hand with a side that aren't favourites or a side that won't chuck him £200m+? See how he does working on a bit of a budget?

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:49 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

As you say, he'll go where the money is, but would it not be good to see him go for a bit of an underdog? Try his hand with a side that aren't favourites or a side that won't chuck him £200m+? See how he does working on a bit of a budget?

Agree entirely, though I suppose its what you judge a great manager on??

Only last week LGJM was slating David Moyes for not taking the League Cup seriously and accused him of being unambitious, yet many would argue that Moyes has done a better job in more difficult circumstances at Goodison, than
Mourihno has ever encountered.

As you say, to judge Mourihno (or any manager) properly he has to face different challenges and overcome them.....We'll never know how good Moyes actually is until he gets a job at a United or a Chelsea. Similarly, could Mourihno do a job at a club like Everton, because until he takes a challenge like that, he can't be truly classed as a great?

Love him, or loathe him, Alex Ferguson is somebody who has truly taken all challenges, small club to big trophies, big club from doldrums to glory, keeping big club at the top, and succeeded in them all....He is a genuine great.

Re: Football Chat Thread - Euro 2012 edition : Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:11 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

He left Inter in a bit of a mess, Chelsea and Porto struggled after he left and he'll probably leave Madrid as the 'cycle' begins to end, much like Guardiola just has with Barca.

When he left Inter Milan they had just won the Italian Cup, The Italian League and the Champions League.

Chelsea struggled so much that they would have finished the league level on points with the champions if they hadn't lost it when news came through that United had won their game and threw away a goal at the death. They struggled so much that they lost that seasons CL final on penalties.

Porto had just won the league and CL. They cashed in on the CL win and sold most of their players. They then went and appointed a manager and sacked him before the season started. They finished 2nd in the league. That was Mourinho's fault?

As you say, he'll go where the money is, but would it not be good to see him go for a bit of an underdog? Try his hand with a side that aren't favourites or a side that won't chuck him £200m+? See how he does working on a bit of a budget?

Just say he went to Everton. He'd probably get half the money he could get somewhere else. Say he continually achieved top 4, won the league cup and FA Cup. The Roddy's would be pointing to that and saying "See, he's not that good then."