: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:03 pm  

AdmiralHanson wrote:

I can understand the sentiment of the post, but there are a number of points that need to be considered with regards to Hillborough and in particular the Lepings Lane end of the ground.

Sadly, the events of Hillsborough were rather overtaken by the clamour for seating at grounds and the rush to turn places in to all-seater stadia in an attemp to keep violence at games at bay (Although Millwall destroyed that little idea, with their antics at Luton, one of the only all seater stadia in the country at the time)

The Leapings Lane end of the ground had an inherant design fault. There was a crush when it was the Spurs end at their Semi in 81 .... There was another crush when it was the Leeds end against Coventry in '87 and we could just as easily be commemorating those as a tragedy. The point is that Hillsborough was a forseeable event waiting to happen when a chain of easily occuring circumstances came together.

The central problem with the ground was the tunnel to take the fans from the turnstile area to the terraces and the four lower pens behind the goal. When the police opened the gates to ticketless fans, there was only one place they could forseeably go and that was towards that one tunnel. Also, unlike many grounds the tunnel led to the highest part of the terracing and thus, it is likley many people would have been nearer the top of the pens to being with, as they would have given the best view. Compare Leapings Lane with say, the South Stand at Headingley ... The SS has four main points of entry and the two tunnels are at pitch level, meaning you generally have to vacate the area of the entrance to move back and get a better view.

In my personal opinion, it is 'safe' to stand at games on the whole, however these need to be properly monitored and policed ... Something that was lacking at Hillsborough.

The football authorities knew of the problems at Hillsborough (there's a bloke commenting in The Times today, as a Spurs fan writing in to complain about being crushed there in '81) and they must hold a certain proportion of the blame of those that died for once again going back to a venue that they knew to have a significant crush risk attached to it.

Perhaps the first thing that football should have done in the aftermath is bulldozed the Leapings Lane end and made sure that design could never kill again. You don't ground every plane just because one particular type had a design flaw.

I was there also in '80 for the Liverpool v Arsenal semi and it was the same then. I saw hardly any of the match and coming out of the ground I went yards without my feet touching the floor. Nothing had changed in the 9 years leading upto the tragedy.

Again, we were given the smaller capacity Leppings Lane end due to the location of the Kop End easier to manage the Arsenal Fans coming from the M1.

: Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:58 pm  

Two unforgivable flaws:

Giving Liverpool the smaller Leppings Lane end
Not closing the gates to the centre pens/ filtering them.

Probably easier said than done but being born in 1990 that is what i have thought from what i have seen and been told about.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:34 am  

Nothing wrong with researching it Ande as you clearly have.

My cousin was at Hillsborough - thankfully he was one of the lucky ones who got out alive and I've never spoke to anyone in my family about it - bar my mum who told me he was there.

I've listened to several interviews on the subject today - most recently those of the mother of Victoria and Sarah Hicks (previously mentioned in this topic) and as a grown man her interview had me in tears - I can't believe someone could go 8 hours not knowing if her teenage daughters were safe or not

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:57 am  

Carneys Pint wrote:

Nothing wrong with researching it Ande as you clearly have.

My cousin was at Hillsborough - thankfully he was one of the lucky ones who got out alive and I've never spoke to anyone in my family about it - bar my mum who told me he was there.

I've listened to several interviews on the subject today - most recently those of the mother of Victoria and Sarah Hicks (previously mentioned in this topic) and as a grown man her interview had me in tears - I can't believe someone could go 8 hours not knowing if her teenage daughters were safe or not

And therein lies the problem.

A vast majority of those who have an opinion on Hillsborough have done no such thing, all they know is what they hear from mates, internet forums etc etc. In fact I'll go as far as to say some aren't even interested in the truth.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:24 am  

From what I saw, I thought LFC TV's coverage of Hillsbrough was excellent yesterday. United used MUTV in a similar fashion on the 50th anniversary of Munich and shows that, on occasion, these in house TV channels can actually be useful. LFC's coverage was handled with class and dignity. The best piece I've read on Hillsbrough this week is here:- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 083158.ece Thousands of people in a football stadium observing a 2 minute silence, or banners at a football match, don't really bring home the gravity of the situation to the same effect as eye witness accounts do, such as the one in this article. Harrowing. After 20 years, failed prosections, compensation and 'apologies' I'm not even sure what justice would look like any more or how you start getting it. A public enquiry would be a start. Whatever justice does look like, I hope they get it - it ought not to be beyond the wit of man.

From what I saw, I thought LFC TV's coverage of Hillsbrough was excellent yesterday. United used MUTV in a similar fashion on the 50th anniversary of Munich and shows that, on occasion, these in house TV channels can actually be useful. LFC's coverage was handled with class and dignity. The best piece I've read on Hillsbrough this week is here:- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 083158.ece Thousands of people in a football stadium observing a 2 minute silence, or banners at a football match, don't really bring home the gravity of the situation to the same effect as eye witness accounts do, such as the one in this article. Harrowing. After 20 years, failed prosections, compensation and 'apologies' I'm not even sure what justice would look like any more or how you start getting it. A public enquiry would be a start. Whatever justice does look like, I hope they get it - it ought not to be beyond the wit of man.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:27 am  

keithcun wrote:

And therein lies the problem.

A vast majority of those who have an opinion on Hillsborough have done no such thing, all they know is what they hear from mates, internet forums etc etc. In fact I'll go as far as to say some aren't even interested in the truth.

You have a point but people who went to football regularly pre-Hillsborough will in all likelihood have different views than those who have been bought up post Euro 96 in the main in modern safe stadiums.

If such a tragedy happened today the world would be in shock......however horrific it was at the time it was no real surprise and could well have happened at Anfield, Villa Park, Old Trafford or anywhere really as getting into any ground at 2.50 for a big game resembled a rugby scrum of gigantic proportions and the potential for such poor decisions by the Police were there week in week out.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:48 am  

Real Radio Yorkshire & Real Radio (formerly Century) Radio coverage here

Real Radio Yorkshire & Real Radio (formerly Century) Radio coverage here

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:56 am  

One body, whom from what I have read has escaped any criticism is the FA. How can a stadium, which seemingly was in no fit state to host a game where both sets of supporters didn't really know their way around the ground, not be deemed negligent?

In fact, I don't recall any particular statements either way from the FA.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:03 am  

getdownmonkeyman wrote:

One body, whom from what I have read has escaped any criticism is the FA. How can a stadium, which seemingly was in no fit state to host a game where both sets of supporters didn't really know their way around the ground, not be deemed negligent?

In fact, I don't recall any particular statements either way from the FA.

Because all 92 grounds were unfit to hold such an event the "away" ends at Villa Park, Goodison, Old Trafford etc were as inadequate as Leppings Lane and thats why grounds were transformed so dramatically after the Taylor Report.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:30 am  

espanyolswan wrote:

Because all 92 grounds were unfit to hold such an event the "away" ends at Villa Park, Goodison, Old Trafford etc were as inadequate as Leppings Lane and thats why grounds were transformed so dramatically after the Taylor Report.

That makes them even more culpable.