Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:41 pm  

Shark J wrote:

Fair enough. I take your points.

I just don't understand the thinking of cj. If I'm not wrong he's a St Helens fan. Around 2 hours ago his team won away from home. And yet instead of celebrating over on the other forum he's taking a pop at a sport he knows nothing about.

I don't like League all that much, I have a soft spot for a few teams, but I don't like it on the whole. I think they're great athletes, their fitness and speed is something Union can't compete with - but I draw the line there. I find the games themselves to be too repetitive and boring. I can't understand how people can be quite happy to concede so many tries every week. Warrington and Leeds tonight being a great example. I don't understand how teams who are so big can concede so many tries every week - especially seeing as you're limited to 6 tackles, which is the worst part of the sport for me. As far as I'm concerned I don't see how every game isn't 0-0 with that rule. But it isn't. And it's your sport. And that's why I butt out of things I know nothing about.

cj doesn't even make a quiet entrance, he just jumps in with things that if he said in court he'd probably get charged for. "Killing off our game" is quite an accusation. And it isn't 1885 anymore, so he really needs to move on. As have 95% of League followers and 99.9% of Union followers. For a sport that's been apparently getting killed off - you've done well. You get similar attendances, nicer stadiums on the whole, a more competitive league pyramid of which puts our 2nd and 3rd tier to shame. You should be praising your game, rather than slating ours. But the bile you spout is utter nonsense and should be left in the past. I get the impression you're in your 40's or thereabouts. So unless you're a really old man, and got shafted by the RFU some time ago - I suggest you try and move on.

Who knows? When we (Sale) move to St Helens and take over your stadium, kick you all out of your jobs, and turn your town into a Union haven whilst you're forced out of your own ground - you might come and watch a game sometime*

*appropriate because some people can't detect sarcasm.

Amusingly, I'm 26 (though maybe you were referring to CJ).

CJ, to a greater extent than me, has had some pretty unpleasant experiences involving RU. He doesn't dislike it for the sake of disliking it.

What you need to remember is that RL is a creation of RU. RL even implemented various changes (lineouts and the 13-man team being prime examples) which the RFU was considering but abandoned as soon as RL made the changes. RL became a separate sport to allow broken time but it changed elements which people regarded as dull. We choose to place more emphasis on handling over tactical kicking, and the 6-tackle idea neatly enforces that.

The beef that RL and football fans have with Union consists mainly of these points:
- The insistence, particularly through the media, that RU is the only 'rugby'. See Steve Diamond's claim that the Reebok is headed for its first ever game of rugby.
- The media's focus on RU and increasing ignorance of RL, although this is part of a wider problem of football dominating everything with a little space for RU and cricket and little for everyone else.
- In some of our cases, the RU culture at school or uni.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:53 pm  

I was referring to cj indeed.

And when most of the population say "Rugby" they are talking about Union, that's just how it is to me. It's not an insult to League. You've already said that RL spawned out of RU, so I don't see why that's a problem. It is going to be the biggest game of Rugby (Union) in the North West - attendance wise.

And I have to disagree with the media stuff. Certainly in the red top papers League gets massive coverage. There are some weeks when I can't even find any Union results, nevermind a write up. You get better coverage on Sky too. I appreciate the bigger papers focus on Union - but that's because it's more of a show piece sport at international level. And that's something that annoys me as a fan of a Premiership team. All the coverage we get boils down to a build up to the international stage.

I was in a pub in south Manchester last week surrounded by people screaming at the tele when England vs France was on. I felt annoyed that some weeks Sale only get 4,000-6,000 - yet there is obviously a bunch of people out there who care enough about the sport when England are on the box!

I also think you're wrong about Football. I generally find most Football fans don't care about either code, and if they don't like it it's both.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:03 pm  

Shark J wrote:

I was referring to cj indeed.

And when most of the population say "Rugby" they are talking about Union, that's just how it is to me. It's not an insult to League. You've already said that RL spawned out of RU, so I don't see why that's a problem. It is going to be the biggest game of Rugby (Union) in the North West - attendance wise.

And I have to disagree with the media stuff. Certainly in the red top papers League gets massive coverage. There are some weeks when I can't even find any Union results, nevermind a write up. You get better coverage on Sky too. I appreciate the bigger papers focus on Union - but that's because it's more of a show piece sport at international level. And that's something that annoys me as a fan of a Premiership team. All the coverage we get boils down to a build up to the international stage.

I was in a pub in south Manchester last week surrounded by people screaming at the tele when England vs France was on. I felt annoyed that some weeks Sale only get 4,000-6,000 - yet there is obviously a bunch of people out there who care enough about the sport when England are on the box!

I also think you're wrong about Football. I generally find most Football fans don't care about either code, and if they don't like it it's both.

It depends whom you know. I was always a football fan (and remain football first, despite the amount of time I spend on RL). I know plenty of other footy fans who will watch RL but hate RU, and a smaller number who like RU and hate RL. But again, depends on whom you know.

You're probably right on the red tops, but I don't read them and have to deal with the ever-decreasing coverage in the Times and Telegraph- thank God the Guardian keep it going.

My view is that RU has the superior international offering, and RL the superior club offering.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:32 pm  

Maybe it is who you know.

My friends from Lancashire/Yorkshire who are Football fans generally like League better, but they can stand Union. My friends from my area and near me such as Wythenshawe, Stockport, Sale, Manchester itself prefer Union. I guess it's because of what's near them. Chances are if my mates ever go to watch a game of Rugby it's at Sale with me because I get cheap tickets. I imagine the ones further up the Country might get to a League game just because there's a ground near them.

To be honest though, and I think we've both agreed on this. There's no competing with Football anyway. You ask the average Football fan to tell you who plays at Welford Road or The Halliwell Jones Stadium and they won't have a clue, will they?

Anyway, I'll buy you a pint at The Reebok game if you're making a trip We could do with the numbers, 13,000 is the latest figure with about 5 weeks to go!

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:57 pm  

Shark J wrote:

Maybe it is who you know.

My friends from Lancashire/Yorkshire who are Football fans generally like League better, but they can stand Union. My friends from my area and near me such as Wythenshawe, Stockport, Sale, Manchester itself prefer Union. I guess it's because of what's near them. Chances are if my mates ever go to watch a game of Rugby it's at Sale with me because I get cheap tickets. I imagine the ones further up the Country might get to a League game just because there's a ground near them.

To be honest though, and I think we've both agreed on this. There's no competing with Football anyway. You ask the average Football fan to tell you who plays at Welford Road or The Halliwell Jones Stadium and they won't have a clue, will they?

Anyway, I'll buy you a pint at The Reebok game if you're making a trip We could do with the numbers, 13,000 is the latest figure with about 5 weeks to go!

The odd thing is, the guys I go to watch League with are mainly from Sale! There's almost ertainly no hard and fast rule.

I do agree, football is the behemoth. And annoyance with modern football won't channel itself into increased support of the handling codes, it will channel into lower and non-league football.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:34 pm  

Shark J wrote:

Welcome back cj, talking poop as always I see.

The past few pages on here have generally been quite pleasant to read and have had well balanced views.

There were about 3 pages of me explaining to people the real situation at Sale and I thought Urmston had a better and less idiotic view than he/she does, but recently something seems to have made him/her even more anti-Union.

Oh well, at least Catalancs talks a lot of sense, so well done mate! That's one more League fan than I would have initially thought.

As I have said in the past I have witnessed and experienced some nasty and downright ignorant people in union.

Shark J I am not having a go at any union fan,for all I know you could be a nice person with whom I could have a decent conversation with.

I have met some right unsavoury characters who because I watched and played RL have more or less fobbed me off because I am associated with RL.

As I say it's nothing personal against you and the reason I am more narked about the game you love is of a certain Kyle Eastmond,hope that answers your question.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:38 pm  

Urmston Wire wrote:

Amusingly, I'm 26 (though maybe you were referring to CJ).

CJ, to a greater extent than me, has had some pretty unpleasant experiences involving RU. He doesn't dislike it for the sake of disliking it.

What you need to remember is that RL is a creation of RU. RL even implemented various changes (lineouts and the 13-man team being prime examples) which the RFU was considering but abandoned as soon as RL made the changes. RL became a separate sport to allow broken time but it changed elements which people regarded as dull. We choose to place more emphasis on handling over tactical kicking, and the 6-tackle idea neatly enforces that.

The beef that RL and football fans have with Union consists mainly of these points:
- The insistence, particularly through the media, that RU is the only 'rugby'. See Steve Diamond's claim that the Reebok is headed for its first ever game of rugby.
- The media's focus on RU and increasing ignorance of RL, although this is part of a wider problem of football dominating everything with a little space for RU and cricket and little for everyone else.
- In some of our cases, the RU culture at school or uni.

Correct mate.
I had nothing against union whatsoever until I was introduced to it by an ex work colleague.

It was then when I first experienced the nastiness and bigotry from RU.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:24 pm  

I just think it's odd you are letting a few individuals put you off a sport altogether.

Football is my favourite sport, but the fans are f*cking idiots. I'm a Manchester United fan but what the top flight in England has become is a joke to me. All the money, lack of English players, violence between fans has put me off a lot in recent years. I go to watch a few away games with my friends who are Blackpool and Bury FC fans. Some of the stuff I hear and see in the crowds makes me look down on a lot of people. I saw Bury play the other week, they were 4th in the table and riding high for their level. They got beat 2-1 and about 20 fans rushed to the front of the stand and started telling the team how bad they were. It made me laugh and think what a bunch of idiots. Sale have won twice away from home in 2 years, and they think one defeat is bad? I saw a Youtube clip of a game between 2 sides in the Evo-Stik League last week, Chorley fans battering Chester fans, old men getting bricked and everything apparently. But do I judge the whole sport on those things? No.

A lot of Rugby League fans annoy me with their pure hatred of Union. I also see certain teams of which I won't mention incase I offend anybody - of which their fans sometimes think they're Football hooligans and do things that aren't wanted in any code of the game. But do I hate the sport because of these people? No.

Unless you're talking hundreds of people who have been really bad to you, then I suggest you try and find it in you to stop being so harsh.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:04 pm  

Shark J wrote:

I just think it's odd you are letting a few individuals put you off a sport altogether.

Football is my favourite sport, but the fans are f*cking idiots. I'm a Manchester United fan but what the top flight in England has become is a joke to me. All the money, lack of English players, violence between fans has put me off a lot in recent years. I go to watch a few away games with my friends who are Blackpool and Bury FC fans. Some of the stuff I hear and see in the crowds makes me look down on a lot of people. I saw Bury play the other week, they were 4th in the table and riding high for their level. They got beat 2-1 and about 20 fans rushed to the front of the stand and started telling the team how bad they were. It made me laugh and think what a bunch of idiots. Sale have won twice away from home in 2 years, and they think one defeat is bad? I saw a Youtube clip of a game between 2 sides in the Evo-Stik League last week, Chorley fans battering Chester fans, old men getting bricked and everything apparently. But do I judge the whole sport on those things? No.

A lot of Rugby League fans annoy me with their pure hatred of Union. I also see certain teams of which I won't mention incase I offend anybody - of which their fans sometimes think they're Football hooligans and do things that aren't wanted in any code of the game. But do I hate the sport because of these people? No.

Unless you're talking hundreds of people who have been really bad to you, then I suggest you try and find it in you to stop being so harsh.

That's your opinion and you're intitled to it.

It also sounds to me you have problems with RL as much as I have with RU.

As I say each to their own and live and let live,but please don't judge me on something which I have witnessed and experienced.

Re: If you must discuss Union, do it here II : Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:25 pm  

No, not really. As I'm on here having a peaceful discussion about UNION on the UNION thread mate. I just find a lot of the fans to be a bit thick and dull. I don't have a problem with all of them, hence most of the conversation flowing nicely on here. The fact I don't like the sport too much means I stay out of discussions, don't make any nasty remarks about it, don't be rude to their fans and flick over if it comes on tele. I was at the Grand Final as I said, just not a huge fan. That's why I only post in this thread and no others now.