Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:38 pm  

jonh wrote:

Usually your secondrow if they are strike players who are looking to exploit the wider channels.

I think it’s probably a term that has come into the game around the same time as middle forwards, ie your prop rotation and these days more often than not your 13.

Thinking about it it’s quite sad that terms such as middle and edge forwards is taking over from the specialised terms.

I’d say someone like Faz, KPP and Bateman are edge forwards for us, where by someone like Smithies who is a secondrow is probably more of a middle.

Thanks John.

I’m not keen at all with current terminology but I suppose coaches need to think that they are progressing the game otherwise some supporters may think that the game has become static so to speak.

I don’t particularly conform to the term channel either.. To me channel suggests a restrictive area when gaps or openings as I tend use suggest a more fluid space.

I think the new terms have tended to restrict how certain positions can be played and to a very large degree have eradicated ball handling skills in the forwards.
KPP is a decent prospect but at the moment that’s all he is. His style of play is almost obsolete that’s why I think he gets so much attention form fans and commentators. For the good of the game we need KPP to continue to improve and bring in more players him into the game.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:57 pm  

jonh wrote:

Usually your secondrow if they are strike players who are looking to exploit the wider channels.

I think it’s probably a term that has come into the game around the same time as middle forwards, ie your prop rotation and these days more often than not your 13.

Thinking about it it’s quite sad that terms such as middle and edge forwards is taking over from the specialised terms.

I’d say someone like Faz, KPP and Bateman are edge forwards for us, where by someone like Smithies who is a secondrow is probably more of a middle.

I was of the opinion the use of the term middle was through the evolution of using an extra forward in the 13 position and you referred to this player and the two props as 'middles' as they generally played in the middle of the park.

On that basis Smithies would only be classed as a middle when playing loose and an edge when playing second row.

I disagree that Smithies is a "middle". His defence is up to it, but his attack falls short in this area. Probably just down to his size and therefore strength / power. Some of his best attacking rugby was when he played left second row in place of Farrell earlier in the season. He started to run some great lines and really ask questions of the defence.

I am worried about the size of Partington, Byrne, Shorrocks & Smithies. They are too small to be used as battering rams. What is most worrying is that two of those names mentioned are props!

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:07 pm  

nathan_rugby wrote:

I was of the opinion the use of the term middle was through the evolution of using an extra forward in the 13 position and you referred to this player and the two props as 'middles' as they generally played in the middle of the park.

On that basis Smithies would only be classed as a middle when playing loose and an edge when playing second row.

I disagree that Smithies is a "middle". His defence is up to it, but his attack falls short in this area. Probably just down to his size and therefore strength / power. Some of his best attacking rugby was when he played left second row in place of Farrell earlier in the season. He started to run some great lines and really ask questions of the defence.

I am worried about the size of Partington, Byrne, Shorrocks & Smithies. They are too small to be used as battering rams. What is most worrying is that two of those names mentioned are props!

agree with this

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:42 pm  

nathan_rugby wrote:

I was of the opinion the use of the term middle was through the evolution of using an extra forward in the 13 position and you referred to this player and the two props as 'middles' as they generally played in the middle of the park.

On that basis Smithies would only be classed as a middle when playing loose and an edge when playing second row.

I disagree that Smithies is a "middle". His defence is up to it, but his attack falls short in this area. Probably just down to his size and therefore strength / power. Some of his best attacking rugby was when he played left second row in place of Farrell earlier in the season. He started to run some great lines and really ask questions of the defence.

I am worried about the size of Partington, Byrne, Shorrocks & Smithies. They are too small to be used as battering rams. What is most worrying is that two of those names mentioned are props!

I think you have to look a bit more into their style of play not just the number on their back.

Mick Cassidy for example was a great secondrow but most of his work was as a defensive grafter often in the middle rather than offering the edge risk.

I’d put Smithies and Isa in that category or more grafters who are not necessarily edges even though they play in the secondrow.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:09 pm  

Smithies and Partington just arent good enough to be starting for a side that claims to be aspiring to win trophies. One coming off the bench? maybe. Time will tell if they will ever be good enough. Plenty of grunt and aggression but whats the point if it cant be used effectively

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:14 pm  

jonh wrote:

I agree re Partington. However even if he plays at loose he is actually playing as a middle and an extra prop.

I like Partingtons attitude but we do need to add some more bulk and power to him in this offseason as he lacks in that department.

I keep coming back to the same point but again over the weekend I watch Knowles at Saints and I watch Partington and Smithies and whilst I see a player further ahead in his development in Knowles, I think our two are doing just fine with and without the ball and are both are very much at a comparable level to Knowles when he was in his third season. The issue with our two us that they don’t have a good coach to play under and they don’t have proper go forward props like Walmsley and Paasi to play alongside. Give them that and both will kick on and will be fine players but keep flogging them, expecting them to come up with more than is physically possible at that age and with that support cast and they’ll get no better and stick at their current level (which isn’t a bad one by any means).

Again for comparison purposes from the magic fixtures-

Knowles

Tackles-34
Carries-7
Metres-49
Avg per carry-7m

Partington

Tackles-30
Carries-8
Metres-65
Avg per carry-8m

Smithies

Tackles-29
Carries-7
Metres-59
Avg per carry-8m

I hear Sky build Knowles up to super human level and the guy is a good player but he’s not playing a Lockers style role at 13 and nor are Smithies (or Partington when they play there). They’re all being asked to play as an extra prop, defending aggressively and bringing their work rate to the team. The difference with our lads is guys like Walmsley and Paasi knock out 147m and 88m each and we have Singleton and Byrne knocking out 59 metres and 49 metres each. You had Hill with 140+ metres and Cooper with over 170 metres for Wire. There’s not enough support for Smithies and Partington but even as it is, they’re going ok for my money. It’s not the job those lads do that hurt us, it’s the fact we don’t have a Hill, Cooper or Walmsley to help them.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:18 pm  

Pie_Eyter wrote:

Smithies and Partington just arent good enough to be starting for a side that claims to be aspiring to win trophies. One coming off the bench? maybe. Time will tell if they will ever be good enough. Plenty of grunt and aggression but whats the point if it cant be used effectively

We’re pointing our fingers at the wrong two here IMO. They’re absolutely good enough with the right support. It’s guys like Clubb, Clark, Bullock and at times Singleton (who has been good for a few weeks until yesterday) who aren’t good enough.

The club are at least trying to fix it with Mago and Ellis. If they can get the support around them right, then I think we’ll see plenty more from Smithies and Partington in the years to come. I’d really keep the faith with those two lads.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:22 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I keep coming back to the same point but again over the weekend I watch Knowles at Saints and I watch Partington and Smithies and whilst I see a player further ahead in his development in Knowles, I think our two are doing just fine with and without the ball and are both are very much at a comparable level to Knowles when he was in his third season. The issue with our two us that they don’t have a good coach to play under and they don’t have proper go forward props like Walmsley and Paasi to play alongside. Give them that and both will kick on and will be fine players but keep flogging them, expecting them to come up with more than is physically possible at that age and with that support cast and they’ll get no better and stick at their current level (which isn’t a bad one by any means).

Again for comparison purposes from the magic fixtures-

Knowles

Tackles-34
Carries-7
Metres-49
Avg per carry-7m

Partington

Tackles-30
Carries-8
Metres-65
Avg per carry-8m

Smithies

Tackles-29
Carries-7
Metres-59
Avg per carry-8m

I hear Sky build Knowles up to super human level and the guy is a good player but he’s not playing a Lockers style role at 13 and nor are Smithies (or Partington when they play there). They’re all being asked to play as an extra prop, defending aggressively and bringing their work rate to the team. The difference with our lads is guys like Walmsley and Paasi knock out 147m and 88m each and we have Singleton and Byrne knocking out 59 metres and 49 metres each. You had Hill with 140+ metres and Cooper with over 170 metres for Wire. There’s not enough support for Smithies and Partington but even as it is, they’re going ok for my money. It’s not the job those lads do that hurt us, it’s the fact we don’t have a Hill, Cooper or Walmsley to help them.

I agree I don’t think they are poor players as such, they just need more support which they have not had throughout any stage of their recent development.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:32 pm  

jonh wrote:

I agree I don’t think they are poor players as such, they just need more support which they have not had throughout any stage of their recent development.

Yeah, it’s not a criticism of any poster in particular. I totally get we’re struggling and everyone is under the microscope but I really don’t have any great worries with those two. They’re being given an impossible task currently and they’re still giving it a good go. Once the right support is there (if we put it in place) then I see them kicking on. If I put my hand on heart, I would say Partington plays out a career as a solid club player but I think Smithies will go further. I’d have bigger concerns about somebody like Liam Byrne at the moment. He does have some natural size about him but makes less impact with the ball sometimes. Clearly he isn’t ready to be a 3rd/4th choice prop at a club like Wigan. Every middle forward is a position or two too high IMO and that includes Partington and Smithies.

Re: Squad for Wire (Magic) : Mon Sep 06, 2021 3:38 pm  

For me, Partington is a decent lad but he'll be the most at risk for losing his spot next season.

I've said previously that I can see Ellis playing 13 for us and I wouldn't mind seeing Bateman play there too. After that at prop you've got Mago, Singleton and Havard and it's gonna be a duel for that 4th spot between Byrne and Partington.