Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:01 am  

MadDogg wrote:

He basically said there is zero penetration in the Wigan pack, some of the younger forwards weren't ready and should ideally be playing reserve grade. Perfectly fair comments imo.

Smithies and Partington in particular have been ridiculously overhyped. Pundits were touting them as world beaters in 2019 simply because they worked hard and tackled fearlessly for their age. Not remotely convinced in either of them. Havard and Pearce-Paul clearly have potential and Shorrocks at least tries to promote the ball at times. I also think that Liam Byrne could well take a giant step forward in the next season or two - a little like Paul Prescott did a decade or so ago.

I feel at the moment we can’t have both Smithies and Partington in the team together, we don’t have the firepower to carry their lack of go forward. That said I think both have a decent future in the game, if Partington can put a stone or two on in the next few years as he grows up to add to his agression he could become a good prop. Smithies I don’t think will ever be anything more than a tackling machine which again can complement certain packs well but not when your senior props are Brad Singleton and Tony Clubb.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:39 am  

DannyT wrote:

Just watched the game now I’m back home, struggled to remember us having a play the ball in the opposition 10m area and apparently it’s the first time at the stadium that we’ve failed to score a try.

Sculthorpe absolutely crucified us both with his observations and then backed up with the stats about our lack of points in halves and games. I don’t think I’ve ever watched an after match review with my head in my hands because of how cutting the comments were. We are a shambles. 7 of our last 12 games have involved us not scoring in a half and 8,6 and 6 points in the second half. This is as far as we should be falling now and from reading comments and listening at the game tonight, the club is going to get hammered in the pocket if Lam stays for the rest of the season.

I’ll end on this:
Carney: I was asking you to decipher a game plan for the Wigan Warriors and you couldn’t come up with one?
Sculthorpe: We said watching it, it looks like a group of mates who’ve gone out on the field and decided to have a game.

I thought every comment from them was spot on

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:48 am  

Again I wouldn’t judge Smithies and Partington too harshly at the minute. We talk of a lack of go forward but statistically they were ok on Friday with Smithies making 96 metres and Partington 86 metres. They both went at over 7 metres per carry. I like to compare them to Morgan Knowles because all three have that natural aggression and all have started a career playing through the middle. I think both are at worst on a par with where Knowles was early in his Saints career. I put some stats on here recently comparing our two to Knowles just last season and Smithies average gain was just in front and Partington’s just behind. Now both are a few seasons behind Knowles in their development, so I think that’s pretty impressive. I’m a big fan of Knowles, he’s kicked on this season and the bigger the game, the better he is but he has every advantage in the world that our two don’t have. He has guys like Walmsley and Paasi punching holes a mile wide in defences. Even so he ran for 56 metres the other night in an embarrassingly one sided game for his team. He gets lots of plaudits and rightfully so but I just think it highlights that things aren’t always what they seem.

Our two need some help, much like many many other players in the team. They need some proper props to play with and more importantly they need a proper coach, a coach who will realise playing in the middle of the field is a tough gig and not one you want to be throwing loads of kids in to all at once. We’re in one of those moments currently where every single player is being questioned in one way or another but I’d look elsewhere than worrying about Partington and Smithies long term. These two lads will be absolutely fine if the club can sort its act out. A proper coach will surely realise Smithies should be getting eased in from the second row and alongside Partington should be getting dipped in and out of the side. They also shouldn’t be playing in the same starting pack as Shorrocks, Pearce-Paul and Havard.

In short, they’ll both be excellent players for us long term.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 8:06 am  

I have also noticed that Byrne has been getting through the line and is a bit more difficult to put down in the last few games which equally a good sign

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:37 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Again I wouldn’t judge Smithies and Partington too harshly at the minute. We talk of a lack of go forward but statistically they were ok on Friday with Smithies making 96 metres and Partington 86 metres. They both went at over 7 metres per carry. I like to compare them to Morgan Knowles because all three have that natural aggression and all have started a career playing through the middle. I think both are at worst on a par with where Knowles was early in his Saints career. I put some stats on here recently comparing our two to Knowles just last season and Smithies average gain was just in front and Partington’s just behind. Now both are a few seasons behind Knowles in their development, so I think that’s pretty impressive. I’m a big fan of Knowles, he’s kicked on this season and the bigger the game, the better he is but he has every advantage in the world that our two don’t have. He has guys like Walmsley and Paasi punching holes a mile wide in defences. Even so he ran for 56 metres the other night in an embarrassingly one sided game for his team. He gets lots of plaudits and rightfully so but I just think it highlights that things aren’t always what they seem.

.

As I (poorly) articulated at the time when you first posted those statistics; Knowles isn’t playing the type of game Smithies/ Partington are. He spent a lot of time early in his career at hooker and is essentially a link now between the halfbacks. Couple that with him being the leader of our defence setting our line speed (one of the key reasons we were terrible against Castleford is that it was Bentley doing this), and part of the reason Paasi/ Walmsley can punch holes is because he’s on their shoulder providing doubt. All in all; a hell of a lot of work that doesn’t translate into metres tackles or assists.

A closer comparison for me would be when Richards and Thompson broke through into the first team. The we’re playing a similar role to Smithies/ Partington (albeit with more senior players around them). Pretty much all Saints fans thought Richards would be the one to make it, and didn’t see why Thompson was getting game time … that settled down after a couple of seasons … the question for Wigan is are they two Richards, two Thompsons or something in between

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:44 am  

All the young players mentioned have potential but should have been drip fed into the first team with quality, experienced players around them. Poor recruitment and injuries over the last few years has meant over reliance on them and they’ve been flogged. They try hard but as has often been described, it’s men against boys most weeks.
Smith worries me though. He’s obviously got bags of potential but it has to start coming through soon. Poor passes, poor kicks etc and far too frequent. He was completely outshone by Dodds on Friday. My biggest fear is we don’t replace Hastings and trust Smith to step up. I think this could be almost suicidal for our future.
Mago and Ellis coming in can’t hurt but our halfback issues for 2022 are very concerning. Field showed a good glimpse of talent at Hull KR but still too untested to judge properly.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:31 am  

Ellis and Mago are good start to fixing our forward issues, but if that is the end of our forward recruitment then it will not be enough.

To go into the season with Mago, Ellis, Byrne, Partington and Havard is a massive gamble. If either of the new recruits ends up injured for a length of time, we are basically back to the same pack as this season, a thought I cannot even think about.

I believe we need another prop recruited, a half back and a centre. If Thornley is coming in as a starting centre and he is the best of what's available, then not only have the club lowered expectations, it shows just how far SL has dropped and just how tiny the talent pool actually is.

As kids we had superstars to idol, flair players that excited you, what do kids have now, what memories of length of the field tries, mazy runs down the wing? I remember players, games and tries from the 80s & 90s as a kid, I'd watch games back on VHS. What are kids memories of games from the last few years?

Recruitment this year is vital, we are losing fans and not generating any interest in attracting any new ones, as the product on show is so dire.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:38 am  

Smithies, Partington and Byrne haven’t improved since 2019.

Pack last night ages were

22
21
20
31
20
20

Bench forwards

28
20
27
22

Literally men against boys.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:24 am  

Magic Superbeetle wrote:

As I (poorly) articulated at the time when you first posted those statistics; Knowles isn’t playing the type of game Smithies/ Partington are. He spent a lot of time early in his career at hooker and is essentially a link now between the halfbacks. Couple that with him being the leader of our defence setting our line speed (one of the key reasons we were terrible against Castleford is that it was Bentley doing this), and part of the reason Paasi/ Walmsley can punch holes is because he’s on their shoulder providing doubt. All in all; a hell of a lot of work that doesn’t translate into metres tackles or assists.

A closer comparison for me would be when Richards and Thompson broke through into the first team. The we’re playing a similar role to Smithies/ Partington (albeit with more senior players around them). Pretty much all Saints fans thought Richards would be the one to make it, and didn’t see why Thompson was getting game time … that settled down after a couple of seasons … the question for Wigan is are they two Richards, two Thompsons or something in between

I’m not convinced his game is that different tbh. He’s certainly not playing a Sean O’Loughlin style role for Saints. He’s a decent link man but Partington especially can play that role himself. Ultimately the number of carries, the metres made, the average gains are very similar between our two and Knowles pre this season. It’s not a slight on Knowles at all, he’s a class act but I’m just trying to highlight that we shouldn’t be writing our two lads off because they’re not barnstorming through teams just yet. You highlight Thompson and he’s another great example of how a player can suddenly kick on a few gears, especially under a top coach and with the right players around him. I certainly didn’t see the World Class forward he now is in those first few seasons. I always felt Richards was a pudding tbh but maybe he had big raps in academy rugby.

Re: Sculthorpe comments (and the rest of the Sky pundits) : Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:16 pm  

Bigredwarrior wrote:

All the young players mentioned have potential but should have been drip fed into the first team with quality, experienced players around them. Poor recruitment and injuries over the last few years has meant over reliance on them and they’ve been flogged. They try hard but as has often been described, it’s men against boys most weeks.
etc and far too frequent. He was completely outshone by Dodds on Friday. My biggest fear is we don’t replace Hastings and trust Smith to step up. I think this could be almost suicidal for our future. Smith worries me though. He’s obviously got bags of potential but it has to start coming through soon. Poor passes, poor kicks
Mago and Ellis coming in can’t hurt but our halfback issues for 2022 are very concerning. Field showed a good glimpse of talent at Hull KR but still too untested to judge properly.

You have to factor in that Smith had to make 26 tackles to Dodds 12. I had radio Manchester on going home and they said the 2nd half penalty count was 9:1 in Saints favour. With such an imbalance in possession it's very hard for the halfbacks to play.