Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:54 am  

Jukesays wrote:

I wouldn't waste your time pal
He's posted what 30/40+ posts in the last 2 weeks all having a swipe at Leneghan etc.
Blaming Leneghan
Blaming Rads
Blaming the RFL
Blaming the State of RL for falling crowds
Blaming Dave Whelan for the stadium (Get over it - it was 22 years ago!!!!)
Saying it's not Lams fault that were average/poor
Sticking up for my mate BFUT and we should be Grateful for his contribution for various reasons
We should go back to the gang of 4 (How does that stack up with Mo being in charge in the early/Mid 00's when crowds were far worse and the club was in complete disarray?).
etc
etc
etc

Yet - Not seen one positive or pro-active comment or suggestion for making things better with a credible supporting evidence that what he is saying is possible rather than just pie in the sky statements i.e. Build a stadium (Ok, where's the money coming from? Where would it be? Why would it be better in the new location than in it's current location? How would it be profitable etc.?)

EVERY TIME he posts I feel like replying, but maybe I am learning my lesson that I would be wasting my time.

They obviously has an agenda, but for the life of me I can't work it out.
I wish they'd just make one coherent post stating what their issue is, why and what they would do about it etc. without going on every thread and making a not so subtle Jibe at every one, from Whelan, Leneghan, Rads, other psoters etc. and taking a contradictory (You could say this is deliberate!) stance on coaches/players etc. to be controversial just to try and get some point (That I can't for the life of me work out what it is!) across.

I will make a statement to try and summarise their stance on all things Wigan/RL etc.

"Things are not as good as they used to be".

That seems to about sum it up?

Nail. Head.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:04 am  

Why do some supporters harp on longing for the past. What makes them think the game was in its best shape prior to 1996?

A small number of clubs went fully pro trying to catch up Wigan's constant stream of success. Success that only attracted averages of 14.5k at their peak playing in century old stadiums well past their best.

Leeds spent fortunes failing miserably on and off the pitch, their only success the odd Yorkshire Cup. The Hull clubs in decline, even getting relegated. Warrington the semi final under achievers despite the loud noises they tried to make. Widnes had a flurry of success but couldn't hold on to their best players (Offiah and Davies), still only managing 10k crowds.
Finally St Helens, won nothing much until SL was introduced.

The game was at its strongest around the early 00's, Saints & Bradford competing for honours in front of large crowds, with Leeds hit on their heels and us finding a resurgence after a couple of years of no success.

Trying to get the sport back to strength to around that time is what we should be aiming for. Needs strong leadership from management (Rimmer isn't the man in my opinion).

Removal of the salary cap to encourage wealthy owners into the game needs to happen. Even if that means a period of time when someone like Warrington dominates by buying top quality players, puts pressure on other clubs owners (I'm looking at IL here, if he won't spend hand ownership to Danson).

Big spending attracts quality players.
Quality players attracts supporters to attend.
Increased attendances attracts bigger sponsorship.
And the game is in a healthier position.

If your Wakeys, Castleford.... etc. Don't want to sign up for it then let them decay further. Better 2-3 clubs with no ambition than restricting 9-10 clubs ultimately forcing them to go semi pro.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:59 am  

100% Warrior wrote:

Do yourself a favour pal and just stop following RL. It’s abundantly clear you cannot stand it.

As for your last “point”. You couldn’t be more wrong. At my amateur club the number of kids has increased. The open age players list has enough for 4 teams. To put it simply; it’s never been busier. I also know that to be similar in other clubs. So to that end you’re once again showing how little you actually know. Typical keyboard warrior you are fella.

Are you for real.

You have made negative comments about the state of team and the game.

As for kids playing, your club may not have a problem, but judging by the decline in the number of clubs in general, the future is not as you seemed to think it is.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:20 am  

Ruddy Duck wrote:

Are you for real.

You have made negative comments about the state of team and the game.

As for kids playing, your club may not have a problem, but judging by the decline in the number of clubs in general, the future is not as you seemed to think it is.

I have. I’ve also made multiple positive comments. That’s called balance. Every comment you make is harping back to an era when most clubs were broke, attendances weren’t any better, facilities were a breeding ground for the bubonic plague and the idea of training was a tic and pass and a few pints and cigs.

There are plenty of amateur clubs with a boost in their numbers.

You literally are one of the most clueless/obsessed with the 80’s posters I’ve come across on here. And that includes The Enforcer.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:46 am  

100% Warrior wrote:

I have. I’ve also made multiple positive comments. That’s called balance. Every comment you make is harping back to an era when most clubs were broke, attendances weren’t any better, facilities were a breeding ground for the bubonic plague and the idea of training was a tic and pass and a few pints and cigs.

There are plenty of amateur clubs with a boost in their numbers.

You literally are one of the most clueless/obsessed with the 80’s posters I’ve come across on here. And that includes The Enforcer.

At least, like many others in Wigan, I am facing the reality of the present state of the club and the game, which unlike some on here who cannot see the wood for the trees!


You have even posted comments yourself that you are far from happy with the present state of the club and game!


As for balance, anyone who says anything different to yourself and fellow members of the clique on here is shot down in flames.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am  

I wonder if above poster has ever thought that a lot of people (probably all) are aware of the problems within the game

they just don't feel the need on every thread to make that point over and over again and make completely irrelevant parallels with yesteryear

What does it matter what Maurice did in 1981? he couldn't do it again in 2001 never mind in 2021
Circumstances are completely different
The RFL are in a poor state, Guess what? It was as bad back in the late 70's early 80s and that bad that Mo left Wigan to try and make it better in the early 90s
How does Mo & the Gang of 4 taking us to the bring of extinction level up with anything Leneghan is doing now? they were the ones that handed the club in a way to Whelan, not anything leneghan has done.
How does it marry up that attendances even in the 80's early 90s and more interestingly at the back end of the 90s were no better than what we were getting Pre-covid?
How would Mo/RFL are anyone else coped with a pandemic in the 80s?
How were the finances of other clubs compared to now? Despite the state of RL pre covid (I don't think it's fair to compare it as of now as no-one in living memory - apart from Rogues who lived through Spanish flu and Bubonic Plague - as ever experienced anything like this) I would say that clubs such as Saints/Hull/Leeds/Catalans/Warrington etc compare favourably to how they were early 90's pre SL? In fact, given the poor foundations that Wigan were built on and a couple of defeats triggering the fall of the empire I would say Wigan also in a way weren't what we remember them wise financially

The point is - We all know what the issues are
RL in this country is struggling - Change is needed
I have my personal opinions and I will expand (rather than continually just keep saying everything used to better and slagging off other posters who won't also just say the same, because they want more substance than just everything is rubbish)

The game missed opportunities mid 2000's - The game was vibrant, we had numerous teams competing along with Catalans introduction into the League (And like someone (MattyB?) said earlier I believe this was when we were consistently competing with the Aussies - A Vibrant international game etc. Without going into the detail IMO we have stalled around 2008/09/10/11 ish and regressed from around 2015/16 onwards Despite that coinciding with Wigan's resurgence etc.
Bradford were long gone
Leeds were coming to the end of the golden generation and dipped and never really recovered
Saints were awful to average in the most for about 5 years - only returning to former glories alte 18/early 19 - Just not really as good as the 00's
Warrington, despite their rise around 10/11/12/13 never kicked on
Hull - despite a couple of CC's were pretty average
Catalans - Were just Catalans
Cas - Pretty much the same as Hull if not worse without the CC's
And to be honest the rest - Meh - year on year of false dawns etc.

But behind all of that is the Salary cap
People were talking about it being too low mid 00's - not really raised with inflation etc. and since say 07/08 onwards they've skirted around the issue by tinkering with Home grown plyer rule. exemptions for some things, Marquee rules etc. when the truth is it's like sticking your finger in the proverbial leaking damn!!!!
We lost more and more star players to RU & NRL
the clubs had to build Squads and couldn't afford superstars as that would have messed the balance of squads up
And putting a whole lot of other issues together in one statement "We started a Race to the bottom".
People have wanted to come into the game and invest money, we've pushed them away
Very successful clubs like Leeds who were sit on millions entered a relegation race due to injuries, existing contracts that stopped them buying new players when injuries kicked in etc. when other clubs worked on a balanced Shoestring and they navigated survival better.
We should be encouraging the Leeds of this world to be able to spend their money
Encouraging Moran to spend his money at Warrington
Encouraging Pearson at Hull, Leneghan at Wigan, Macmanus at Saints etc. etc. to look for more investment form other sources and invest in the game.
But here's the key

Why spend hundreds of thousands trying to bring more money into a game when you can't spend it where you want to?
Why invest in clubs that are on a race to the bottom?

Salary cap needs a massive overall, it needs to be raised significantly, investment from outside of the game needs to be attracted, Barla and youth set up reviewed

I could go on for hours - nobody wants that

But to suggest that fans do not understand this is ridiculous
they just don't want certain posters moaning on every thread over and over again basically just saying "Look at me - I know the answer - Everything is rubbish compared to the 80's/90s" without any substance or solutions attached.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:01 pm  

Ruddy Duck wrote:

At least, like many others in Wigan, I am facing the reality of the present state of the club and the game, which unlike some on here who cannot see the wood for the trees!


You have even posted comments yourself that you are far from happy with the present state of the club and game!


As for balance, anyone who says anything different to yourself and fellow members of the clique on here is shot down in flames.

So come on then.....what do you suggest? It's extremely easy to criticise and never offer solutions. I've listed above what I believe think needs to be done, you may have a different opinion on a solution. Or you may have none and just want to revel in how poor the game is now and we just all make as well pack up?

So I ask again... What is your resolve?

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:21 pm  

Ruddy Duck wrote:

Are you for real.

You have made negative comments about the state of team and the game.

As for kids playing, your club may not have a problem, but judging by the decline in the number of clubs in general, the future is not as you seemed to think it is.

your wrong, I see more clubs, far far more clubs than when I played in the 80's and 90's, more players also, some clubs have to run 2 teams at age groups just to give them game time.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:25 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

I wonder if above poster has ever thought that a lot of people (probably all) are aware of the problems within the game

they just don't feel the need on every thread to make that point over and over again and make completely irrelevant parallels with yesteryear

What does it matter what Maurice did in 1981? he couldn't do it again in 2001 never mind in 2021
Circumstances are completely different
The RFL are in a poor state, Guess what? It was as bad back in the late 70's early 80s and that bad that Mo left Wigan to try and make it better in the early 90s
How does Mo & the Gang of 4 taking us to the bring of extinction level up with anything Leneghan is doing now? they were the ones that handed the club in a way to Whelan, not anything leneghan has done.
How does it marry up that attendances even in the 80's early 90s and more interestingly at the back end of the 90s were no better than what we were getting Pre-covid?
How would Mo/RFL are anyone else coped with a pandemic in the 80s?
How were the finances of other clubs compared to now? Despite the state of RL pre covid (I don't think it's fair to compare it as of now as no-one in living memory - apart from Rogues who lived through Spanish flu and Bubonic Plague - as ever experienced anything like this) I would say that clubs such as Saints/Hull/Leeds/Catalans/Warrington etc compare favourably to how they were early 90's pre SL? In fact, given the poor foundations that Wigan were built on and a couple of defeats triggering the fall of the empire I would say Wigan also in a way weren't what we remember them wise financially

The point is - We all know what the issues are
RL in this country is struggling - Change is needed
I have my personal opinions and I will expand (rather than continually just keep saying everything used to better and slagging off other posters who won't also just say the same, because they want more substance than just everything is rubbish)

The game missed opportunities mid 2000's - The game was vibrant, we had numerous teams competing along with Catalans introduction into the League (And like someone (MattyB?) said earlier I believe this was when we were consistently competing with the Aussies - A Vibrant international game etc. Without going into the detail IMO we have stalled around 2008/09/10/11 ish and regressed from around 2015/16 onwards Despite that coinciding with Wigan's resurgence etc.
Bradford were long gone
Leeds were coming to the end of the golden generation and dipped and never really recovered
Saints were awful to average in the most for about 5 years - only returning to former glories alte 18/early 19 - Just not really as good as the 00's
Warrington, despite their rise around 10/11/12/13 never kicked on
Hull - despite a couple of CC's were pretty average
Catalans - Were just Catalans
Cas - Pretty much the same as Hull if not worse without the CC's
And to be honest the rest - Meh - year on year of false dawns etc.

But behind all of that is the Salary cap
People were talking about it being too low mid 00's - not really raised with inflation etc. and since say 07/08 onwards they've skirted around the issue by tinkering with Home grown plyer rule. exemptions for some things, Marquee rules etc. when the truth is it's like sticking your finger in the proverbial leaking damn!!!!
We lost more and more star players to RU & NRL
the clubs had to build Squads and couldn't afford superstars as that would have messed the balance of squads up
And putting a whole lot of other issues together in one statement "We started a Race to the bottom".
People have wanted to come into the game and invest money, we've pushed them away
Very successful clubs like Leeds who were sit on millions entered a relegation race due to injuries, existing contracts that stopped them buying new players when injuries kicked in etc. when other clubs worked on a balanced Shoestring and they navigated survival better.
We should be encouraging the Leeds of this world to be able to spend their money
Encouraging Moran to spend his money at Warrington
Encouraging Pearson at Hull, Leneghan at Wigan, Macmanus at Saints etc. etc. to look for more investment form other sources and invest in the game.
But here's the key

Why spend hundreds of thousands trying to bring more money into a game when you can't spend it where you want to?
Why invest in clubs that are on a race to the bottom?

Salary cap needs a massive overall, it needs to be raised significantly, investment from outside of the game needs to be attracted, Barla and youth set up reviewed

I could go on for hours - nobody wants that

But to suggest that fans do not understand this is ridiculous
they just don't want certain posters moaning on every thread over and over again basically just saying "Look at me - I know the answer - Everything is rubbish compared to the 80's/90s" without any substance or solutions attached.

we could double the cap and have 50 percent paid from sky then upto the clubs to pay the rest, might make teams work to get investments instead of sitting back

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:33 pm  

SKY money saved the game 26 years ago we are no better position now as they are pulling the rug from beneath us.Live games in the pub why pay £25 when you can watch for free and have a free night out. Turn the clock back when MO got the deal and the controversial format he wanted would we be in a better position now after all the RFL want to make more radical changes now in this moment of time
Salary Cap not moved in all the years of SKY money not even moved with inflation as mentioned in previous posts why should rich backers come into the sport. Koukash with his hands tied behind his back by the RFL for example could have brought a lot more of his rich friends into the sport all he got from the RFL was a brick wall. Clubs not playing up to Salary cap limit.
With the salary cap we have lost players to the NRL and not been able to attract players from NRL only those at the end of their careers coming for a retirement Why should Moran,Caddick,Lenegan etc not be able to spend money on big stars Salary cap killed the game .
Tinkered about with the format of the SL too much--- license no promotion/relegation -14 teams then down to 12 playing these loop matches the attraction of playing Saints twice a year gone are the times we used to enjoy these matches now do not have the same importance any more
Too many rule changes .SKY interference to make the Grand Final more important than the Challenge cup.
Refereeing decisions even when going /not going to the screen even when going to the screen taking too long.
COVID not all people feel that they are safe when attending a match .
With covid finances limited if they have been furloughed and now the threat of austerity looming for public employees.
Salary cap again instead of improving the league teams are a lot more weaker its still the big teams winning the cups.
No one knows apart from ex players on BBC who the current players are stifled by the RFL as players cant put themselves in the shop window in adverts SC .
Fans got out of the habit of going to matches did summer rugby improve the attendances once again moved by SKY
SKY gave us a lifeline back then and now instead of improving the game it has gone terribly backwards.