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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 2:23 pm  

User avatarMadDogg wrote:
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Dom Manfredi will be in the 21 man squad. Not sure Lam will move the backline around in a big game just to accommodate him though.
Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 2:34 pm  
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The Hollywood Frasier wrote:
No because it's not a race.


Neither is Polynesian.
Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:33 pm  

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sergeant pepper wrote:
What will education do tho?

Looking at social media and talking to people there seems to be mixed views on if what he said is racist or even offensive. Things move on and change and it's not just a question of black or white. The worlds a much smaller place and people are ignorant, perhaps through no fault of their own, to what constitutes an offensive comment and what doesn't.

There's a post above this saying Polynesian isn't a race. There's some ambiguity around whether or not it is a race but I would argue that it is.
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:48 pm  
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm  

User avatarnikos wrote:
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Pemps wrote:
Looking at social media and talking to people there seems to be mixed views on if what he said is racist or even offensive. Things move on and change and it's not just a question of black or white. The worlds a much smaller place and people are ignorant, perhaps through no fault of their own, to what constitutes an offensive comment and what doesn't.

There's a post above this saying Polynesian isn't a race. There's some ambiguity around whether or not it is a race but I would argue that it is.


Ive heard it said that the judge of whether a comment is offensive has to be the person it is aimed at....
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm  

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Pemps wrote:
Looking at social media and talking to people there seems to be mixed views on if what he said is racist or even offensive. Things move on and change and it's not just a question of black or white. The worlds a much smaller place and people are ignorant, perhaps through no fault of their own, to what constitutes an offensive comment and what doesn't.

There's a post above this saying Polynesian isn't a race. There's some ambiguity around whether or not it is a race but I would argue that it is.


Spot on. I read the comment you’re replying to and the poster says what will sitting in a classroom for a couple of weeks do, if you’re racist, you’re racist and that’s unlikely to change. There is surely a difference between being a racist and making a racist comment you may not have been aware would be taken that way? That is where education and support would help all players.

I said at the start of all this that there isn’t a league table of racist comments based on severity but ultimately I think we’d all be in agreement that Clubb should’ve been sacked had he racially abused a black player for example but we all get to see/hear examples of black people being racially abused on a very regular basis. This is different and whilst it’s wrong and it will be upsetting for Savelio, his family and the Polynesian race in general, I think there’s enough ambiguity on the situation (as you say) to cut him some slack and use it as a way of trying to help all the players across the game.

What I would agree with from posts above is that Clubb really should come out and apologise on this. I get he couldn’t do that until this case was closed but there’s nothing stopping him now. I would hope we’ll hear him do that or at least hear that he’s spoken to Savelio in private.
Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:54 pm  

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sergeant pepper wrote:
What will education do tho? It almost falls into the realms of speed awareness courses i.e people go on the course and ultimately forget about them after a few days later. In many ways they take the course as it's soft option Vs real punishment.

Let's be realistic - if a person is racist, homophobic etc then sitting in a classroom for a couple of weeks isn't going to change their outlook on life.

You aren't going to change someone who is actively racist, but I think you can educate people who perhaps didn't think about the impact of his words, or how they might impact the person on the other end of them. I'd like to think Clubb is in the latter category, ignorant rather than racist, which can hopefully be rectified with education.
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 3:56 pm  

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sergeant pepper wrote:
What will education do tho? It almost falls into the realms of speed awareness courses i.e people go on the course and ultimately forget about them after a few days later. In many ways they take the course as it's soft option Vs real punishment.

Let's be realistic - if a person is racist, homophobic etc then sitting in a classroom for a couple of weeks isn't going to change their outlook on life.


You call it realistic
I say that if a person goes on a speed awareness course to "Only" find the easiest soft option then that speaks more about the person involved than it does about the society we want.
I would suggest that a Lot of people take the speed awareness course and LEARN from it
If they don't they will soon be back there and you don't get a 2nd chance and the punishment is greater and could include a Ban etc or worse if they keep reoffending?

other option

Do nothing - How does that help?
Sack him (The equivalent of lock him up throw away the Key) - Good luck with that, and to don't be surprised if there were multiple ramifications from that type of outlook

Your also saying if a person is racist as if it is a (No pun intended here honest) Black & White subject, it isn't - It is a much more nuanced situation with many angles and grey areas, I wouldn't call myself racist, have I made mistakes yes, but I would call them clumsy honest mistakes rather than deliberate ones. There has to be a way back from such situations rather than immediately saying You're a racist and forever will be one.
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Last night after the 8 match announcement you had the noisiest people on that group shouting the loudest from the Right Wing/Left Wing of the subject. I.e. He's done nowt wrong, you can't say anything these days, lefty Snowflakes on one side to the "It's the worst thing in the world, Zero tolerance etc. Brigade on the other
The truth lies in-between and the silent majority are probably not too far away with their thoughts in the middle but just can't be bothered discussing with idiots from wither side.

it's a delicate situation
I wouldn't; expect someone who does 35 in a 30 to get the same punishment as someone who's stole a car, and is doing 100mph with dangerous intentions - Whilst both are technically Speeding there is a world of difference between the two - But some want to implement say a Zero tolerance side of the argument - Whilst others will say Bloody Hell haven't the Police got better things to do than worry about someone going a bit over the speed limit - Neither is right to apply the same punishment to both offences.

I saw a Hull fan saying how can Liam Farrell get away with a head high tackle when Connor gets sin binned and a subsequent ban
If that person can't see the difference between the two that's their problem no matter how loud they shout
Someone wanted Havard (I think they called him Havant) suspended the same as the guy from Leeds for a shoulder charge after the ball had gone
If that person can't see the difference between the two that's their problem no matter how loud they shout

"IF" Clubb has held his hands up and apologised, Owned his mistake and wants to learn from it then he deserves the chance to do so and the club should help him with that.
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 4:22 pm  

User avatarPie Eyed wrote:
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Pemps wrote:
Looking at social media and talking to people there seems to be mixed views on if what he said is racist or even offensive. Things move on and change and it's not just a question of black or white. The worlds a much smaller place and people are ignorant, perhaps through no fault of their own, to what constitutes an offensive comment and what doesn't.

There's a post above this saying Polynesian isn't a race. There's some ambiguity around whether or not it is a race but I would argue that it is.


I'm not certain that even the RFL have been able to decide whether Polynesia is race or a place, and I'm worried now that they might have just opened themselves up to a whole raft of claims/reports, based on their press release.

The first paragraph reads:
Wigan Warriors forward Tony Clubb has been banned for eight matches after an independent Operational Rules Tribunal found him guilty of using ‘unacceptable language based on national or ethnic origin’ towards Hull FC’s Andre Savelio


That now means that nationality is classed equally with race?

So calling (for instance) Brian Carney a silly Irish {insert insult here}, or an Aussie calling someone a Pommy {insult}, etc. would be deemed equally offensive to the use of black/n****r/p*ki ???

Surely that can't be right?

Lifting the mood - Surely re-educating Clubb should be fairly simple.
Teach him to use single-word insults, or double-word if he REALLY means it.

In other words, stick to either "c***" or "fxxxing cxxx".
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Re: v Hull FC Wed May 05, 2021 4:27 pm  
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Jukesays wrote:
snip


You've missed my point slightly.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been punished and I'm also not saying that we should sack him either. Like you, I've seen calls for both - they are wrong and 8 matches + a fine is right for me.

What I am arguing however is that there's little point in the education part. I get the theory behind it, but for me it's academic or signalling BS. Let's take Clubb as an example - I don't think he's racist (the character testimonials back that up) and I don't think he's an idiot either. He's probably said what he did to get a reaction (heat of the moment) & whilst that's still wrong and something he needs to be punished for - what benefit will there be to the course? Are we saying he's that thick that he doesn't know what racism is?

For a driving awareness course, you don't need to be told that speed kills. It's pretty obvious. I occasionally speed and I'm sure most on here do too. I'm fully aware of the dangers and implications of that. I also know that, if I get caught, then I'll be punished inline with how much I'd broken the speed limit. I don't need to go on a course to learn that.

In regards to your other points about not being able to see the difference, you are right. I wouldn't however think that going on an education course would help them understand it any better.
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National Rugby League 2021 ROUND : 25
 PLDFADIFFPTS
Melbourne 24 815 316 499 42
Penrith 24 640 280 360 42
Souths 24 775 453 322 40
Manly 24 744 492 252 32
Sydney 24 636 475 161 32
Parramatta 24 566 457 109 30
Newcastle 24 428 571 -143 24
Gold Coast 24 568 553 15 20
 
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NZ Warriors 24 453 624 -171 16
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NQL Cowboys 24 460 748 -288 14
Canterbury 24 340 710 -370 6
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Catalans 23 688 398 290 38 172.86 82.61
St.Helens 21 548 229 319 32 239.30 76.19
Warrington 21 588 354 234 31 166.10 73.81
Wigan 25 387 385 2 30 100.52 60
Leeds 24 556 440 116 26 126.36 54.17
Hull KR 20 497 458 39 20 108.52 50
 
Castleford 23 439 552 -113 22 79.53 47.83
Hull FC 21 409 476 -67 17 85.92 40.48
Huddersfield 24 460 516 -56 18 89.15 37.50
Wakefield 24 482 548 -66 18 87.96 37.50
Salford 22 402 586 -184 14 68.60 31.82
Leigh 22 356 870 -514 4 40.92 9.09
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Betfred Championship 2021 ROUND : 20
 PLDFADIFFPTSDIFFWP%
Toulouse 13 616 112 504 26 550 100
Featherstone 19 817 254 563 34 321.65 94.74
Halifax 19 512 323 189 26 158.51 68.42
Bradford 18 483 455 28 24 106.15 66.67
LondonB 18 504 499 5 21 101 63.89
Batley 19 525 370 155 24 141.89 63.16
 
Whitehaven 20 447 496 -49 21 90.12 52.50
York 19 470 455 15 16 103.30 42.11
Widnes 19 458 509 -51 15 89.98 39.47
Newcastle 18 381 521 -140 13 73.13 36.11
Sheffield 18 382 553 -171 13 69.08 36.11
Dewsbury 19 308 570 -262 13 54.04 34.21
Oldham 19 270 691 -421 5 39.07 13.16
Swinton 20 354 719 -365 3 49.24 7.50
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Barrow 17 596 275 321 27 216.73 79.41
Workington 15 471 310 161 21 151.94 70
Doncaster 18 503 400 103 24 125.75 66.67
Keighley 19 640 399 241 25 160.40 65.79
Crusaders 18 553 438 115 22 126.26 61.11
Hunslet 19 572 466 106 20 122.75 52.63
 
Rochdale 17 505 488 17 17 103.48 50
Coventry 17 407 460 -53 12 88.48 35.29
LondonS 18 292 577 -285 7 50.61 19.44
West Wales 18 208 896 -688 1 23.21 2.78
This is an inplay table and positions can change as matches are in play.
Betfred Womens Super League 2021 ROUND : 9
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St.HelensW 7 370 36 334 12 1,027.78 85.71
WiganW 6 222 64 158 10 346.88 83.33
YorkW 6 186 102 84 8 182.35 66.67
CastlefordW 6 166 96 70 8 172.92 66.67
BradfordW 8 158 264 -106 6 59.85 37.50
Hudds W 7 104 288 -184 4 36.11 28.57
 
Wire W 8 150 334 -184 4 44.91 25
FeatherstoneW 8 122 338 -216 4 36.09 25
LeedsW 7 364 38 326 14 957.89 100
WakefieldW 7 50 332 -282 0 15.06 0
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