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Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 6:49 pm  

User avatarNSW wrote:
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For me the problem isn’t Havard/Partington/Shorrocks/Bryne. They are the cream of the prop in terms of 20/21 year old props/middles.


The problem in our squad is our experienced props

Bullock 28 years old people rave about him because he makes the odd good carry. Can’t defend, can’t play poor than 15 mins, crap.

Singleton 28 year old, great last year but awful this year. A Leeds reject shouldn’t be our first choice.

Clubb 33 year old, I don’t need to spell it out.

Mitch Clark 28 year old, signed on good money can’t even get a game.

If these were performing we’d be fine. Bag these not the young lads.
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Wire_91 wrote:its your first final in about 8 years and now you ravin and rantin about it F**k off, and ill be going old trafford tomoz cheering on the saints and ill be writing on this forum givin you loads of shi* when your drying you eyes and the wire fan will be here handing out the tissues in the thousands, thats if you do take that many fans cause now it looks like its your fans who have jumped on the band wagon now your in a final, this time last year there was only 1000 people in the jjb and now its fillin up cause youve won the league hahaha proper true supporters you are
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 6:58 pm  

User avatarjonh wrote:
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NSW wrote:
For me the problem isn’t Havard/Partington/Shorrocks/Bryne. They are the cream of the prop in terms of 20/21 year old props/middles.


The problem in our squad is our experienced props

Bullock 28 years old people rave about him because he makes the odd good carry. Can’t defend, can’t play poor than 15 mins, crap.

Singleton 28 year old, great last year but awful this year. A Leeds reject shouldn’t be our first choice.

Clubb 33 year old, I don’t need to spell it out.

Mitch Clark 28 year old, signed on good money can’t even get a game.

If these were performing we’d be fine. Bag these not the young lads.


Completely agree.

It’s not the young lads fault they are all bring blooded at the same time.

If we keep them together they will be a great set in 3/4 years time.

Our older heads at the moment are damaging the squad when it should be us relying on them and rotating the youngsters not the other way round.

There has been some serious mismanagement and planning when looking at Props.

Add to the fact it was common knowledge Burgess was broken when we signed him it’s been a really poor performance by the club.
Last edited by jonh on Sat May 08, 2021 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:01 pm  

User avatarNickyKiss wrote:
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NSW wrote:
For me the problem isn’t Havard/Partington/Shorrocks/Bryne. They are the cream of the prop in terms of 20/21 year old props/middles.


The problem in our squad is our experienced props

Bullock 28 years old people rave about him because he makes the odd good carry. Can’t defend, can’t play poor than 15 mins, crap.

Singleton 28 year old, great last year but awful this year. A Leeds reject shouldn’t be our first choice.

Clubb 33 year old, I don’t need to spell it out.

Mitch Clark 28 year old, signed on good money can’t even get a game.

If these were performing we’d be fine. Bag these not the young lads.


100% correct

I’m unfair to mention Havard being away from his best. Why shouldn’t a kid be allowed to suffer a bit of second season syndrome? They’re all being over exposed and it’ll hurt them long term.

I’ve said many times that I won’t bag the club if we don’t sign anybody else given the current climate and I won’t but don’t sign at least one prop this season and it’s game over in terms of winning anything.
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:07 pm  

User avatarjonh wrote:
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NickyKiss wrote:
100% correct

I’m unfair to mention Havard being away from his best. Why shouldn’t a kid be allowed to suffer a bit of second season syndrome? They’re all being over exposed and it’ll hurt them long term.

I’ve said many times that I won’t bag the club if we don’t sign anybody else given the current climate and I won’t but don’t sign at least one prop this season and it’s game over in terms of winning anything.


If we get an Indian Summer in October we stand a chance.
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Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:11 pm  

User avatarNickyKiss wrote:
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jonh wrote:
If we get an Indian Summer in October we stand a chance.


Possibly but I watch Saints and my lord they’re boring to watch but their line speed is brilliant in defence and they’ll stick with us fitness wise, so when you put Walmsley and Paasi up against our junior front row, we’ve hardly got a prayer.
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:21 pm  
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NickyKiss wrote:
Possibly but I watch Saints and my lord they’re boring to watch but their line speed is brilliant in defence and they’ll stick with us fitness wise, so when you put Walmsley and Paasi up against our junior front row, we’ve hardly got a prayer.


OT, but I thought JB seemed to move to 13 late on and that got him far more involved. We definitely seem to be in the mindset that JB was the best 2nd row in the NRL, so that's where he should play over here. Stick him at 13 imo, let him roam and get his hands on the ball most sets.

That's how we bridge the gap. We aren't gonna match them in hard yards, so let's be the opposite. Play to strengths and sign a half decent prop who can make a few yards.
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Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:24 pm  

Father Ted wrote:
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Our prop problem is started by the fact we've no big meter makers in the backs who can bring it out of our 10-20-30 areas. Hull's props and forwards in general were going forward off quick ptb from their backs. We haven't had that all season. We've been missing Manfredi, Gildart and Marshall who make big meters and quick ptb. That's where our problems start and we need good tactics to overcome that and Lam can't provide them. When Hodgson saw the team sheet an hour before ko he must have had a smile from ear to ear.

Once again in a big game team selection was more than questionable. We knew Hull's props would come after us big time so we needed Bullock and Singleton to start. Again in a big game Zac's kicking had to be watched. It was poor from minute one. Lam should have changed kicker 5 mins before half time not 5 mins before the end.

Poor team selection, poor tactics and poor game management led to that defeat and that's down to Lam IMO.

If we want to win trophies then IL/Rads have to start looking for Lam's replacement now, if they've not already.
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:46 pm  

User avatarNickyKiss wrote:
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sergeant pepper wrote:
OT, but I thought JB seemed to move to 13 late on and that got him far more involved. We definitely seem to be in the mindset that JB was the best 2nd row in the NRL, so that's where he should play over here. Stick him at 13 imo, let him roam and get his hands on the ball most sets.

That's how we bridge the gap. We aren't gonna match them in hard yards, so let's be the opposite. Play to strengths and sign a half decent prop who can make a few yards.


Bateman has earned the right to play what he sees in front of him but it feels like he’s been restricted since he came back. He was quite off the cuff in his spell in Oz and he showed a side to his game we’ve not really seen. In that last ten mins today he got to show that and Hull couldn’t handle him. Lam is good at talking the talk but needs to start walking the walk and if he does that we’ll see a different John Bateman.
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:49 pm  

Cherry.Pie wrote:
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NSW wrote:
For me the problem isn’t Havard/Partington/Shorrocks/Bryne. They are the cream of the prop in terms of 20/21 year old props/middles.


The problem in our squad is our experienced props

Bullock 28 years old people rave about him because he makes the odd good carry. Can’t defend, can’t play poor than 15 mins, crap.

Singleton 28 year old, great last year but awful this year. A Leeds reject shouldn’t be our first choice.

Clubb 33 year old, I don’t need to spell it out.

Mitch Clark 28 year old, signed on good money can’t even get a game.

If these were performing we’d be fine. Bag these not the young lads.


It's clear that the quality of our established and experienced props is nowhere near the level of our rivals at the top of Super League.

When Saints last year boasted Walmsley, Amor and Graham who were all making more than 100m per game and supported by other experienced players it's no surprise they looked so dominant in games.

Warrington have Hill and Cooper who regularly make 100m each game and an international like Philbin to back them up.

Watts might not be quite at the top of his game this year at Cas but he's another quality prop who has been so dominant for a good few years. Hull had Sate and Sao today and Scott Taylor who was missing through injury. Experienced and some real tough metre makers.

Even where teams have experienced players that aren't dominant and big metres eaters they are generally very effective in certain areas. Millington at Cas is an experienced front rower who is the sort of player Ben Flower could have been had he not suffered so many injuries. Solid, consistent and reads the game well.

Our props listed above just don't compare. We've only had one prop make more than 100 metres in a Super League game this season. That was Ethan Havard against Leigh.

We obviously don't have a weak pack. We wouldn't have come top of the league last season, reached the Grand Final and pushed Saints so close that they needed a last second winner. What we have is a pack that seems fairly unique that has an obvious weakness.

Our strength is clearly our back row: Faz, Isa, Bateman, Partington, Smithies, Shorrocks. Not a single one of those players is playing badly right now and 2 of them have been out of position. Bateman might not be hitting the heights but he's still more effective than 90% of back rowers in Super League. Our wide second rowers can make plenty of metres consistently. The likes of Partington, Smithies and Shorrocks don't make big metres down the middle but have their value. They'd be phenomenally valuable to sides that have a big pack.

We don't even have size out wide. We get by without it because Faz, Bateman and currently Smithies are so good at playing above their weight. We've got a good pack overall, but you really have to wonder how good this team could be if it had one or two really top quality props. The sort that could at least be in contention for England honours.

Saints have had Walmsley, Thompson, Graham as an ex-international
Wire have had Hill, Cooper and Philbin
Cas have had Watts
Hull have Taylor and back it up with some good imports
Leeds now have Oledzki

Which of our props is pushing for an England call up? The only one who seems likely is Havard and that's almost certainly in a couple of years time.
Re: The Prop Problem Sat May 08, 2021 7:51 pm  
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NickyKiss wrote:
Bateman has earned the right to play what he sees in front of him but it feels like he’s been restricted since he came back. He was quite off the cuff in his spell in Oz and he showed a side to his game we’ve not really seen. In that last ten mins today he got to show that and Hull couldn’t handle him. Lam is good at talking the talk but needs to start walking the walk and if he does that we’ll see a different John Bateman.


It was a marked difference in his performance imo.

For all of Lam's talk of "play what you see", he's not been the guy to bring out the best in JB.
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